Station Name Totem Dimensions

[Geep7]

I'm hoping this is the correct place to asked.

 

Was there a maximum width / maximum number of characters on a totem nameboard? And what we're the rules, if any for word-wrapping?

 

I thinking of places like LEE-ON-THE-SOLENT or BEXHILL-ON-SEA.

[dhjgreen]

Up here we had 'Bury Bolton Street' on one line. In all caps on the totem of course.

[bécasse]

I am not sure that there were any hard and fast rules, it may well have been left to the signwriter's common sense. I do have the dimensions, including letter sizes, for a SR totem somewhere and I will look them out and post them.

 

I very much doubt if LEE-ON-THE-SOLENT ever had SR totems - they never became widespread at minor stations outside urban/electrified areas.

[Geep7]

I am not sure that there were any hard and fast rules, it may well have been left to the signwriter's common sense. I do have the dimensions, including letter sizes, for a SR totem somewhere and I will look them out and post them.

 

I very much doubt if LEE-ON-THE-SOLENT ever had SR totems - they never became widespread at minor stations outside urban/electrified areas.

LEE-ON-THE-SOLENT would most likely never have had them as it closed in 1931. But I have a cunning plan to resurrect it as a possible alternate universe terminus surviving into the 1970's....

[Joseph_Pestell]

LEE-ON-THE-SOLENT would most likely never have had them as it closed in 1931. But I have a cunning plan to resurrect it as a possible alternate universe terminus surviving into the 1970's....

 

Well it certainly would not have had them in 1931. What collectors usually refer to as totems are the BR era signs in the form of a hot dog. The Southern equivalent, which tended to last longer than on other regions, is usually called a target.

 

This does have some bearing in your question because totems could be much longer than targets. So for instance, I have a target for Minster (Thanet) which is shown as Minster on the main cross bar with Thanet on the lower part of the circle. I don't think that the station was resigned before going to black-on-white corporate image. But, if it had been, I think that it would have been shown as Minster (Thanet) all on the sausage part of the totem.

 

Where names were long, the font used could be changed to something a bit narrower. My only other plate is a totem for Horton-in-Ribblesdale. That is all on one line and rather more letters than Lee-on-the-Solent..

 

Edit to add: Lee-on-Solent seems like a very reasonable place to have remained open under Rule One. But probably still diesel only in the 1970s. Quite an interesting range of possibilities for train destinations: DEMU: Fareham, Alton, Eastleigh, Salisbury...; 4-TC Eastleigh (for attachment to the rear end of a REP.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell

[Geep7]

Well it certainly would not have had them in 1931. What collectors usually refer to as totems are the BR era signs in the form of a hot dog. The Southern equivalent, which tended to last longer than on other regions, is usually called a target.

 

This does have some bearing in your question because totems could be much longer than targets. So for instance, I have a target for Minster (Thanet) which is shown as Minster on the main cross bar with Thanet on the lower part of the circle. I don't think that the station was resigned before going to black-on-white corporate image. But, if it had been, I think that it would have been shown as Minster (Thanet) all on the sausage part of the totem.

 

Where names were long, the font used could be changed to something a bit narrower. My only other plate is a totem for Horton-in-Ribblesdale. That is all on one line and rather more letters than Lee-on-the-Solent..

 

Edit to add: Lee-on-Solent seems like a very reasonable place to have remained open under Rule One. But probably still diesel only in the 1970s. Quite an interesting range of possibilities for train destinations: DEMU: Fareham, Alton, Eastleigh, Salisbury...; 4-TC Eastleigh (for attachment to the rear end of a REP.

Thanks, i'm not sure if it would be totems or targets actually.

 

I'm currently re-designing my layout Blackhurst (most likely to be renamed to Lee-on-the-Solent), which is 3rd rail electrified. My rule 1 alternate history thinking at the moment, is that the Meon Valley line was electrified (when the Alton line was) all the way through to Lee-on-the-Solent. The thinking being that HMS Deadalus opening caused an upsurge in traffic. Most likely completely unplausable, but does give me an excuse to run a lot of different trains as you mention.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Thanks, i'm not sure if it would be totems or targets actually.

 

I'm currently re-designing my layout Blackhurst (most likely to be renamed to Lee-on-the-Solent), which is 3rd rail electrified. My rule 1 alternate history thinking at the moment, is that the Meon Valley line was electrified (when the Alton line was) all the way through to Lee-on-the-Solent. The thinking being that HMS Deadalus opening caused an upsurge in traffic. Most likely completely unplausable, but does give me an excuse to run a lot of different trains as you mention.

 

Have whichever you prefer. Some stations went straight from targets to corporate image, some went from targets to totems, before corporate image. I think that there were even a few stations that had both totems and targets at the same time.

 

It's not that implausible that the Southern could have electrified all its routes much earlier. Might have helped keep them open.

 

On a target, I think the Southern may have cheated and called it Lee on Solent.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell

[bécasse]

The length of the sign varied with the name but the main horizontal section was 5" high with 3" lettering. The round central target was 13" in diameter with its green "ring" 2½" wide (with 1½" high lettering where necessary).

 

I suspect that the minimum length of the sign (for LEE for example) was 18".

 

LEE ON THE SOLENT would almost certainly have had just LEE in 3" letters on the main horizontal, ON THE in 1½" letters on the upper part of the target ring and SOLENT again in 1½" on the lower part of the target ring.

 

If you google "southern railway target signs images" you will get to see a number of examples - be aware though that some of the images are of (obvious to me) modern reproductions.

 

The signs were enamelled green with white lettering and two white 6" x 1½" crescents within the green target ring. Exceptionally, the target signs at WOOLWICH DOCKYARD were enamelled dark blue (as used on earlier "CAR" stop signs) rather than green and there may have been a few other examples unknown to me.

[Joseph_Pestell]

The length of the sign varied with the name but the main horizontal section was 5" high with 3" lettering. The round central target was 13" in diameter with its green "ring" 2½" wide (with 1½" high lettering where necessary).

 

I suspect that the minimum length of the sign (for LEE for example) was 18".

 

LEE ON THE SOLENT would almost certainly have had just LEE in 3" letters on the main horizontal, ON THE in 1½" letters on the upper part of the target ring and SOLENT again in 1½" on the lower part of the target ring.

 

If you google "southern railway target signs images" you will get to see a number of examples - be aware though that some of the images are of (obvious to me) modern reproductions.

 

The signs were enamelled green with white lettering and two white 6" x 1½" crescents within the green target ring. Exceptionally, the target signs at WOOLWICH DOCKYARD were enamelled dark blue (as used on earlier "CAR" stop signs) rather than green and there may have been a few other examples unknown to me.

 

I can not think of anywhere with lettering on the upper part of the circle. Have to Google as you suggest.

 

Interesting info about Woolwich Dockyard. Perhaps the factory were confusing it with North Woolwich?

 

Edit: Now Googled. None there with letters on the top half. Christ's Hospital (17 characters, same as Lee on the Solent) is all on the central rectangle so, I suggest, Lee on the Solent would not use lettering on the lower part of the circle.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell

[bécasse]

I couldn't actually think of anywhere with letters on the upper half of the target either, but that doesn't mean that they wouldn't have been placed there in the case of LEE ON THE SOLENT. I can't think of any signs where the "subsidiary" name (eg ON SEA) formed part of the main name either. The question is academic because the real station never had Southern targets.

 

CHRIST'S HOSPITAL is the whole name (after the adjacent [then] boy's school) and would have been ridiculous split between the main rectangle and the lower part of the target ring. Place names that started with a geographical  descriptor had the whole name on the main rectangle, eg WEST WORTHING and EAST WORTHING, the latter was a halt though, so the word HALT did appear on the lower part of the target ring.

 

The WOOLWICH DOCKYARD targets precisely matched the blue used for the car stop signs so I always assumed that it was a deliberate experiment (at a relatively minor station) to see if stations with electric services should be differentiated in this way. Generally every station (and halt) served by electric trains was given targets, elsewhere they tended to only be installed at major stations or at stations where significant rebuilding (or building new) occurred. Doubtless there were exceptions to any "rule".

Edited March 8, 2018 by bécasse

[Joseph_Pestell]

I agree that it would not be reasonable to split "Christ's" from "Hospital". (has the school moved?). But likewise, Lee-on-the-Solent is a complete name in itself.

[bécasse]

I agree that it would not be reasonable to split "Christ's" from "Hospital". (has the school moved?). But likewise, Lee-on-the-Solent is a complete name in itself.

 

Christ's Hospital school near Horsham has been mixed since the girls' school moved down from Hertford many years ago - hence the "then boys'".

 

There were a fair number of places with SR targets that had "on/by sea" as part of their name (Shoreham, Goring, Durrington, Allhallows, for example) and in each case the "on sea" was treated as a subsidiary and appeared in the lower part of the target ring. I am trying to remember how PORTSLADE AND WEST HOVE was treated but the full name may have been confined to the running-in boards and the targets just said PORTSLADE - they certainly didn't have the full name in 5" letters - and that might have been what the Southern would have done at LEE ON THE SOLENT.