More track daddy!

[Gavinn]

Hi All,

It has been a long term wish to put together a model train layout. My 2 1/2 year old son has fallen in love with trains with thanks to Thomas. I have a few test sections of flextrack and one J94 that I have fitted with a Tsunami TSU-750. He is now old enough to carefully set points. His first comment on seeing his first short trial run was 'more track daddy!'

So its time to fulfil my dream and give the little guy some more track, a lot more track!

I am after any comments on the layout I have put together. It may be all wrong as I have joined a few plans I have found online to try and achieve a few objectives. My initial thoughts on the layout are:

- OO Gauge

- Steam only

- DCC control (electronics control is a hobby and work so thats pretty easy)

- JMRI control

- Some shunting areas to keep daddy occupied having fun

- Ability to have trains continuously running to keep the little guy interested.

- Post war period, say 1950's

- At least two stations

- A colliery (so I can build a motorised head frame)

- GWR for the easiest to research in the antipedies

- Nowhere specifically

- Must have a decent tunnel

 

 

I was after any comments on the layout. 

Should the junction station be on a straight with the point closer to the station?

 

Thanks in advance

Gavin (daddy)

[Chris M]

Based on what my gransdon (who was two a couple of weeks ago) thinks of my layouts.

1. Tunnels are an essential part of the enjoyment - one of my grandson's first words was tunnel.

2. Thomas is essential even though I don't encourage it.

3. He seems to prefer end to end running to round and round. I have two N gauge layouts ( a roundy roundy and an end to end), a railway round the garden and a circle of G track to run round indoors. He loves seeing trains go round and round, especially the G scale Thomas but the one that keeps his mind most occupied is the end to end N gauge layout. Based on this you might want to consider juggling your plan to allow trains to run from one terminus to another using most of the track so the train gets a good run before coming to the end of the line without having to change points (even though you say he can change points). Maybe add a platform to the colliery and change the access to the branch to the other direction. This kind of gives a complete railway going from somewhere to somewhere else. As my grandson is younger than your lad and I use dc control I have added  diodes and isolating sections that can be switched in or out to each end of the line. In this way he can run trains up and down but not crash them when they get to the end. At only just two he can do stop, slow and fast and can change direction. He hasn't got as far as points yet.

 

Of course all of us are different so my thoughts might not be the best fit for your son.

[Pete the Elaner]

Chris's grandson sounds unusual in preferring end to end over liking trains whizzing round & round. Like most mechanical objects, model trains work better when they have been run a little so a continuous circuit gives them the chance to do this.

 

The incline from the corner station to above the tunnel looks a bit steep. Assuming you have a 3m run to it (which I don't think you do), then a 1 in 50 incline will give you 60mm clearance, which is not enough. You could choose to drop the other line a little too, but this creates quite a complex board structure.

There is a point in the tunnel. This will typically be the most problematic because it is the least accessible, so make sure you have good access to it, preferably by making the top of the tunnel removable.

The 2 exits of the tunnel at the colliery end form a return loop. This will need careful wiring and/or operation to avoid issues.

Edited March 8, 2018 by Pete the Elaner

[Gavinn]

Thanks guys!

Must agree Chris with the branch station. I think I will move the corner station to the top of the hill and flip the branch to access from the other side. Would giver better running length, especially with a loop around the outside before going to the branch station. Will add a platform at the colliery as well, sounds like a good idea as I want some small cottages there too.

 

The grades were a bit steep Pete. It doesn’t show on the print but I’m planning to have the junction station and front of the track at +35mm, dropping into the tunnel at 0mm. The track over at +80. Hope that gives enough clearance.

Ah, might mive that point to the tunnel entry - didn’t think of getting to it! And missed the return loop! Shall make a note of that.

Thanks gents! Much appreciated

Gavin

[JohnR]

Chris's grandson sounds unusual in preferring end to end over liking trains whizzing round & round. Like most mechanical objects, model trains work better when they have been run a little so a continuous circuit gives them the chance to do this.

 

 

Maybe not as unusual as you might think. My boy got his first Hornby set when he was 4 for christmas 2016. Most of the time it (and the extra bits of track we got him) was set up in an oval. But once the track mat was put away because it had fallen apart, he experimented - and a couple of times when I've got it out for him and arranged it in the usual oval, he's said "Dad, cant we have it the other way?"

[Jaggzuk]

Firstly welcome to RMWeb and secondly welcome to the world of Daddies building for the kids.  Its is a very enjoyable world to be in!!

 

A few Qs first.  What side of room are you building this in and was is the max size of baseboard you can achieve?  Hoe many sides of the layout can you access, flip that to which areas can you not reach!  And lastly, have you built a layout before or is this all new to you.

 

Bases on a) may experience and b) following a few other Daddies layout builds on here I have the following comments/observations.

 

1) Play factor - fast trains, racing trains, shunting (when a bit older)  Steam and diesel (especial if he sees any real trains) and train formation - long trains of trucks or coaches.

 

2) Irrespective of it being DCC, you will want two controllers, trust me!  I have NCE Power Cab and a slave unit and will soon get a third slave unit as with two boys an me sharing a controller is a bit of a hassle.

 

3) Scenic perfection vs getting it finished .  I suffer from the first ;-)

 

4) It is a great hobby for providing learning opportunists for our kids; model making, simple electronics, internet research, model shows, photograph and videoing.  Some when he is a bit older.  My 7 year old love videoing trains running on the layout.

 

5) Railroad vs fine details rolling stock.  We have a hard floor, so cheaper locos etc with less fine detail are a little more robust.

 

6) Kids will love, lights, sound, truck loading and role playing.

 

7) Surprisingly my boys grasped the DCC throttle very easily at about 3 yeas old we have far less crashes than DC operation.  They just get it, like TV remotes, smart phones and tablets, then can pick it up very easily.  The level of fine control they now have is amazing the eldest now shunts using both Kadee coupling and even trucks with 3 links chain coupling!!

 

On the plan my thoughts are:

 

A. Hidden storage sidings as your stock box will grow!!

B. Reverse loop, can be solved by DCC, but do you need it?

C. Double track is good element.

D. Make sure you can have at least two trains running all the time time

E. Sidings are a must

F. Engine shed is another must (IMO)

G. Make sure you can easily reach all track/ scenic areas  Uncoupling for short arms is a hard.  Building the layout always having to reach will be tiresome.

H. Consider a flyover, fun to watch

I.Keep the tunnels, but make sure you can get to the track.

J. Plan your scenery.

L. Gradients no more than 3%

M. Consider how to control the layout, points and signals.  I use manual point levers and use the DCC throttle for just controlling trains, it works for the boys.

 

 

Really looking forward to watcing this one grow, keep us updated and photos too :-)

 

All the best Paul

[Gavinn]

Hi Paul,

Really appreciate the feedback - lots to think about!

This is my first real layout, plat with model trains as a kid but that was a few years back now. I’m a mechanical engineer so playing with electrical and mechanical items is just plain good fun. And may as well go all in if I’m going to do this. It’s been in the back of my brain for many years now..

 

The room that the track will end up in is 5 x 4.5 meters. It’s a storage room of sorts in a new house being built. Well a room planned for a model train called a storage room until my wife found out and then told me she would love to help too, so a family project now. Originally planned for a corner but after reading you comments, now maybe on castors with the left hand side against one wall and access around the other three sides.

 

1 Steam is just a love of mine for many years. Diesel could make an appearance. Maybe some fast trains could be good.

 

2 Part of my reason for JMRI is Withrottle. Little guy has worked out the sounds and movement on this already. Just not where the end of our straights are at present (insulated joiners and dead zones coming this weekend). Additional throttles won’t be an issue there.

 

3 slightly ocd and pedantic my describe me. So scenic perfection with be a little issue for me. I am thinking this is a real long term project tho. Get it going, add some buildings, perfect the operation then go back and ‘fix’ the scenery over time

 

4 this will actually bring together all the things I enjoy. Just hoping little guys does too.

 

5 ahhhh. Yep

 

6 the sound is a big one. The sound on the Tusnami is brilliant. Will play that that a bit! Lots of lights to come too

 

A maybe rearrange the top of the layout and include a fiddle yard? And not have this on a wall.

 

B Need - want, who knows. Was a thought to make it a little more complicated, needing planning. A flyover would probably be easier without it though

 

C was wondering about that. Thanks. Shall stay now. Should I extend this in top right or keep as single track? I like the idea of forward planning. But little guy might not.

 

D looks like a new purchase soon then! Bigger for the express or freight m thinking

 

E more siding needed do you think? If so any locations suggestions?

 

F definitely an engine shed on the way. My second building - water tower first for practice. Dual?

 

G good point. Some thinking to be done

 

H forgot all about a flyover. Concentrating too hard on tunnels. One to come, somewhere

 

I I’ll open the back side for access

 

J lots of thoughts. I’ll put n plan soon after a few track fixes

 

L. Ohhhh. Had some at 4%. Redesign to come. Should be fine with some planning

 

M I had a grand plan of using servos and push button and dcc for the points. Might leave that then. Manual via wire controls to the front panel for easy access?

 

 

Thanks Paul. Some coffee and track planning session ahead I think.

Cheers

[Gavinn]

You have me thinking...

I started thinking a complicated 8x4 layout (had a Granite and Northern track) in mind. This started to look to busy for me as I started looking at layouts from the UK (in Australia here). I loked the open space a ability to get some great uncluttered scenery on the layout. This evolved to the track above. But based on peoples comments, Does a lot of this get solved by going to an around the wall layout? 600-700mm wide for access to everything, long tracks for gentle grades, expansive scenery and a few more. Whats the thoughts on going to an around the wall layout versus the one above?

Thanks

[Pete the Elaner]

Long, sweeping curves with little scenic compression may look good but may not satisfy operating interest.

Making a nice building from scratch takes time, but there is no reason why the buildings can't be used on the next layout.

 

Now I am in my 40's, I like a layout without scenic compression & am quite content to spend an evening working on a building or making a retaining wall arch without even considering turning the power on. I also find it frustrating to see some of the rail sides shine back at me.

As a child, I was more interested in running trains. I did not care that the rail sides were shiny, there was no scenic ballast, no hills, roads, buildings etc. This did not seem to matter to me back then.

An around the wall layout would be fantastic. That is what I have now & I am sure I would have always loved it. It may take a little longer to build though. Getting something running ASAP is important though, especially for a first layout.

[Gavinn]

The asap aspect is high on the importance list at the moment that is true. Running trains is needed I think to keep him interested. The scenery will take a while and I’m ok with that.

Shall do some thinking. Maybe look at planning the above layout to start with. Then remove one end and extent along the wall later. Always good to have a plan. But I do want to get it running

Thanks

[sjrixon]

I've an 8 year old Nephew, which setup a small amount of track directly on a board for him to play with.

 

However hard I try, all he wants to do is have the trains racing round together. I've adding sidings, platform etc, but there is no interest. 

 

I'd get a baseboard down and free form the track a few times and see what works. When I was younger I used to love taking all the track up and starting again, you slowly figure out what works for you.

[Jaggzuk]

My converted attic would allow a 12'x13' foot around the edge layout which I had all planned out - this was an early version http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/73339-scarm-layout-design-software-with-3d-all-users-topic/?p=1080607.  But an 8x4 for the boys sort of jumped the que the plan = http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/104302-a-new-family-8x4-layout/.  The build = http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/106602-family-8x4-oo-layout-trains-running-again/page-1

 

I agree with the comments above, kids are very adapt with their imagination, for example our station building has platform numbers on it (1 & 2) and one boy likes Plat 1 and the other likes Plat 2.  So when there is a train occupying one platform, the whole building gets lifted up and turned around so that the empty line is always Plat 1!!  Done ask me why :-0  I am just the adult here ha ha.

 

What has always been key is ability to run trains, that's is what they love to do, their imagination fills all the scenic gaps.  They do not know it is wrong to run x coach with loco y.  I have enjoyed more watching their role playing games; the most annoying one is that the drivers are always stopping to have tea breaks and the diesels keep running out of coal!!  But I have learnt to "let go", just watch The Lego Movie and the ending to understand the massive difference between kids play and Daddies play.  I now really enjoy just watching trains rushing around and any loco with any truck and any coach is OK.

 

To be honest I now really enjoy watching the Hornby mail train rushing round the layout picking up and dropping off mail bags, it is mesmerizing and such fun.

 

Our other fun game is driving trains to coloured signals.  Well we do not have any signals yet, but lots of red, orange and green matchbox cars.  These get place and swapped around the layout to help the boys drive to signal control .  Even more fun with them sat under the layout and a smartphone using our WIFI TrainCam pretending to be a driver!

 

I ramble too much, but my point is build something to play on and have fun.  But planning is good fun too.

 

For me I would see what a round the wall layout would give you and see how quick you can build the baseboards and track.  Otherwise start a bit smaller as you have said and then adapt into a big round layout.

[Gavinn]

That’s caused a lot of thinking ... again! And I have almost a conclusion! The track above was something I was looking at as a compromise between an 8x4 and a much larger layout. But the need and want to get something going quickly for both of use, and to be honest a practice too, will probably lead to an 8x4 layout. This means I can get it going quickly and work on scenery techniques along the way. Leave the larger layout for later - I really want a colliery and a few other things an 8x4 can’t offer.

 

I had a look at your layout Jaggzuk. I rather like it! It gets around a few thing I didn’t like about others. The flyover, tunnels and curved station really appeal to me. Would you mind if I borrow the plans as a basis for my layout?

 

I am going to keep planning the next layout because let face it, that’s part of the fun!

 

Itching to get at least the first oval running

[Jaggzuk]

Hi Gavin

 

Yes sure, very happy for the plan to be used, in fact it has at least two/three other brother layouts out there.

 

It was drawn in SCARM track planning software, so if you want to use that then I can send you the raw data file.  The issue is that it is now over 100 objects in size so any changes you make cannot be be saved unless you buy a licence.  But I would recommend the software as I found it very use to use and fun when planning our layout (usual applies there are other planning packages out there that do a good job too)

 

Here is one of the layout brothers http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/122082-brambleford-layout-new-arrivals/page-1

 

An 8x4 is a very good place to start and I have used it as a place to try out my skills and learn new techniques .  But I always knew I would want it to grow so planned in the extension for a fiddle yard at the beginning.

 

If you think that it will grow, plan how all the 8x4 effort could be incorporated into a bigger round the room layout.

 

I hope you have a comfy armchair for all the planning ;-)

[Gavinn]

Hi Jaggzuk,

 

I been using SCARM for the layout. It’s pretty good now I have figured out how to do a few things and also found some standard track layouts. And the couch is pretty good late at night with a warm cup of milk.

 

I would appreciate a copy if that’s ok. I’ve tried to follow the image plan but can’t get it quite right. Pretty well limited to Peco track where I am so I’ll need at adapt to that. I think allowing for it to be extended is that way to go. If I like the way it turns out I’ll expand. If my modelling skills start a little too ordinary, I’m sure the little guy won’t mind at all having the track to himself.

 

I had a good look through you build. I am keen to try a folded plywood (I think that’s the term) for the base. Essentially cutting the ply and raising / lowering sections to get the grades. I think the transitions will be nice and smooth and worth the effort. The woodworking skills aren’t too bad. Probably 9mm marine ply for the base. Public holiday here so maybe a hardware store trip later.

 

I’ve already made the hot wire cutter and experimented with a few parts of buildings and platforms.

 

Cheers

Gavin

[Gavinn]

Hi guys, with many thanks to Jaggzuk for allowing me to use his track plan and a bit of fiddling, I have a new track plan. Back to an 8x4 layout. I am planning to use the cookie cutter method of cutting the ply base to get smooth grades and transitions.

 

As a bit of a test, I have printed out the track plan made a (very) rough cardboard mock-up to see if it will work and I have the cuts in the right place. All looks good for the track but the road may need some re-aligning, shall leave that for when the track is cut out and see how it looks.

 

A trip to the closest model shop, 200 km away, and I have a bag of goodies, enough to complete the two inner loops and I think the outer loop. I may be one point short but the extension is for future, I could run the flex track around to get all three loops going.

I also have a plie of A3 printouts ready to place on the 12mm marine ply in the shed. 

 

I found a clearance diagram at https://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/Hints%20&%20Tips.html as well as heaps of other useful info for newbies like me. From this I am planning to run the cut lines in the ply 27mm off track centre line or the track that is elevated. This will allow for a wall before the batter slope. The lower track will have extra width to allow for retaining walls or a rock embankment (work that bit out later).

 

I have 90x19mm pine framing for the base supports. the plan is to make the base flat. This will be the platform section height of 40mm, the green bits. Then cut away the framing for the lower sections, cyan descending below platform and blue at 0mm.

 

Next to work out - DCC wiring!

[Pete the Elaner]

 

 

Next to work out - DCC wiring!

Not difficult if you follow a basic rule:

Isolate & re-feed after every point. This may not strictly be necessary for your layout, but it helps to get around poor rail joints (which become worse when age & corrosion are factors), nickel silver rail is a relatively poor conductor compared to copper wire & isolating after every point will completely remove the possibility of causing a short circuit by throwing the wrong one at the wrong time.

It will not take too long if you add a dropper to each section (or piece of track) as you go along, it is scaleable so you'll never need to learn any other technique for a future, bigger, more complex layout with electrofrog pointwork & you could save yourself a lot of time fault-finding.

[nicolasgreenin]

Hi Gavin,

 

Track plan looks good (I would say that I am bias my layout is also a copy of Jaggzuk‘s too) my word of caution is watch the gradients mine are 3% and I struggle to get trains up around the curves. To fix it I ended up fitting DCC Concepts Powerbase I would recommend planning to use them from the start as it will save you some time/hassle.

The Powerbase is a simple idea stainless plates mounted between the track and the underlay and magnets under the locos.

 

As for DCC it is not that much harder than DC and sometimes easier. There is plenty of help here...

[Gavinn]

Hi Guys,

The soldering iron is getting ready! Sounds like a good way of track long it. I have a mix of insulfrog setttack and electro frog streamline points. So tackle them all like electrofrog sounds easy. Some relays for frog power needed - have a idea on that, more later.

 

Most of the grades are 2%, one small part at 2.4%. Still go the PowerBase? I take it it’s a long electromagnet pulling the love down to get more traction? Have to see if I can find some around somewhere!

[nicolasgreenin]

Hi Gavin, the magnet on the loco is not powered there is no electronics envolved just simple magnets. Very simple as for the frog power if you are using pm1 seep point motors they have a simple switch to power the frog. I have got DCC concepts point decoders and they are good but not perfect.

[Jaggzuk]

Hi Gavin, love the model of the model, great 3d version of the plan.

 

Hope all goes well with the build start.  I have not found the 3% gradients we have a real issue.  We have a number of light weight locos, such as any 0-4-0 and a few Hornby Railroad locos but I have a load of old letter press printing lead which solves most of the traction issues.

 

I can see the advantage of the DC Concepts Powerbase which uses Neodymium magnet, nothing electromagnet about them   But as Nicolas says you will need to add the Powerbase under your track, so plan it in.

 

It all depends on your loco collection and how much stock each loco is to haul.  Do not forget trucks carry loads and they can get heavy, especially when little boys load them up with anything they can get their hands on  -a rake of trucks full or match box cars is a pretty heavy train!!

[Gavinn]

Hi Guys,

Sorry for the delay. Things got a little busy. But finally the baseboard is assembled and seems to work. The ply isn’t fixed in place yet but with some standing on it it appears to follow the grades pretty well. I do need to put in some trimmers in a few places once the top is in place but that won’t take too long.

Before the end of the weekend I hope to have the top fix and track fully laid out.

I should have drawn the track centreline at the beginning. Stuffed up there but fixing that soon. Due to the lack of shops and internet ordering I also seem to have bought cork trackbed without chamfer or the centre split. Oops. I do have a mirror cutter for picture frames so I’ll be trying to split it myself. That’s the next task.

Then hopefully some track!! The little guy is getting a little anxious, well daddy too really.

Cheers

[NittenDormer]

Bridge, tunnels, racing trains, yep I agree with all that. And so probably does my son, although he seems to really enjoy the taking apart and rebuilding of track as settrack would offer. He spends a lot of time with his Big Jigs wooden track, having given up on me making acceptable progress. Again the adult play, children play distinction as per the Lego Movie comes to mind. The only other suggestion to include (or consciously exclude) is a diamond crossing to allow the required volume of crashes.

[Gavinn]

Haha. I thinking a decision to exclude the diamond crossing might be a good idea for the maintenance budget! Might get one for the wooden set though! The Lego movie is cool! But yes he needs to be able to play properly!

[Gavinn]

Well at least the track is starting to have the desired result - the little guy has started playing with it although no where near ready.

And I even got a hand getting the track straight! Oh, and some lovely black drawings all over the tracksetta as well.

And once again came the plead ‘more track daddy’. And then after grabbing a plastic train there was a very excited ‘express coming through!’ as it zoomed down the hill!

Happy daddy