Plastic Locomotive Kits - A discussion and views to the future

[chris p bacon]

Hence why my own chassis are based on one designed by the same person who designed the F5, with the same thicknesses and axle/bearing dimensions.

 

 

But which wheel, gearbox and motor combination is it designed for ? Coupling rods ?

And has there been a test build of the design to ensure every thing fits and works ? 

 

 

 

And there is the problem. 

 

We designed around a readily available coupling rod from AG, using others meant there there was a discrepancy between the axle/wheel centres and the rods and you'd never get the loco to run well.

 

I realise that a lot of this knowledge comes from experience and you don't gain experience without trying, but I would suggest to the OP that it's probably a good idea to just design stuff for yourself until you get some experience without thinking about selling.  A purchaser is going to expect the item to be able to work (cleaning/sanding/painting aside) and may well not be happy if it doesn't and start insisting on money back.

[Nearholmer]

There is a thread, recently started, about the demise of Grandt Line, a, possibly The, maker of plastic injection moulded loco kits, which might be worth a read and follow-up.

 

Kevin

[sem34090]

Test build of the chassis is ongoing, and I have designed a set of rods to be printed in brass or steel to fit.

[Jeff Smith]

It's a good idea to buy a set of axle jigs to ensure your axles are parallel and match the coupling rods. They are not expensive.

[tomparryharry]

I don't want to pour cold water on this, however....

 

Seeing  how Dapol & others are charging nearly £20:00 for a wagon, where the gate price is about £2-£8:00, then someone is making a healthy margin. However, that's business. 

 

If you get into making plastic locomotives, then the production costs for the other items should have a pro-rata cost.

 

Don't believe that you'll get anything seriously cheap, where there is a serious buck or two to be made.

 

If Kooper-Kraft can't keep it together, with what was a first-class reputation in tatters, then keeping a profit margin for plastic toys is tricky business indeed.

 

Sorry to be a party-pooper, but that's how I see it. Please, please prove me wrong. I'd be very interested to see such a development hitting the market.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

 

PS. What happened to the gent whom asked about wagon kits a few weeks ago? My proposed colliery layout will soak up mineral wagons. I'm still in the market for a bulk of those little babies.

[Hesperus]

I think there could be a market for a beginners kit with 3D printed parts that sandwiched etched and turned brass parts into place.  There could be a printed inner chassis block that you wrap in folded brass and insert into a printed outer chassis.  Bearings are slotted in along with axles and gears and pickups are bolted into place.  The manufacturer could solder the wires on first for real 'no tools' appeal.  Everything below the body slots and bolts together so it can be dismantled for maintenance.

 

An important consideration would be to offer it as a complete kit though as it's fine to walk from one stand to another at a large show buying wheels here and gears there but it's annoying when you've missed that show and need to pay £5 postage on each tiny mail order.  Motors and gears can be bought quite cheaply from China and a kit designed in a way that motor x slots into part a and part b screws on to hold it into place could be made to be no more difficult than reassembling an old RTR loco that you have just painted.  An alternative could be to print a chassis that the parts from a RTR chassis could be assembled into.

 

It would require more investment on the part of the manufacturer but I would be happer giving someone £90 for a complete kit than £40+£5 post to Shapeways then £15 +£4 post for the motor then the gears, wheels, pickups, wire, rods, crankpins, couplings, crew, worksplates etc even if I ended up paying a little less.

[relaxinghobby]

Look at the new RTR bodies that are being produced in several sub-sections, like this one from the Bachmann Junior range. Do we not already have these as kits? They can be modified and parts swapped around between various bodys.

 

[Jeff Smith]

And you don't even need any glue.....I am puzzled though how the cab roof fits without blocking the side apertures!

[PatB]

And you don't even need any glue.....I am puzzled though how the cab roof fits without blocking the side apertures!

 

If I remember the Bachy Junior pictures I've seen correctly, it does.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

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Look at the new RTR bodies that are being produced in several sub-sections, like this one from the Bachmann Junior range. Do we not already have these as kits? ...

 As a long term enthusiastic exponent of the 'see the RTR loco body simply as an assembled plastic kit' approach, I have to add a sobering thought. Some of Hornby's recent (and very good) loco constructions feature nearly as  much metal in the loco body shell as the old H-D did. Not nearly so amenable to being chopped up and reassembled as a plastic body; although to balance that there's a plentiful stash of older plastic bodied product available.

[brian777999]

.

 

The retail cost was high, Airfix worked as volumes were huge and price popular level. The lack of Chinese production of railway themed kits seem to indicate that there is no mass market to provide sales, even with low wages and cheap production costs.

 

 

 

That may not be quite true. The Chinese were not making any Australian HO until some Australians went looking for a factory in China to make models for them. Quite a few companys seem to be doing that here now. I assume that they are making a profit as they are always announcing new models. China is a big place and the manufacturers there can't be expected to recognise every business opportunity available overseas. Sometimes you have to take the idea to them first.

[Craigw]

That may not be quite true. The Chinese were not making any Australian HO until some Australians went looking for a factory in China to make models for them. Quite a few companys seem to be doing that here now. I assume that they are making a profit as they are always announcing new models. China is a big place and the manufacturers there can't be expected to recognise every business opportunity available overseas. Sometimes you have to take the idea to them first.

 

Quite a few companies are doing Australian RTR. But less factories are doing it - individual factories are dealing with multiple (Australian) companies. There has been no interest shown by anybody to bring in kits from China. The RTR models as produced are quite unsuitable for kits . Adding the details and painting is always the issue with kits, and these would be no different.

 

Craig W

[rue_d_etropal]

And you don't even need any glue.....I am puzzled though how the cab roof fits without blocking the side apertures!

 

If I remember the Bachy Junior pictures I've seen correctly, it does.

And it takes seconds to remove it!You can also drill out front/rear cab windows.

[LNWR18901910]

Look at the new RTR bodies that are being produced in several sub-sections, like this one from the Bachmann Junior range. Do we not already have these as kits? They can be modified and parts swapped around between various bodys.

 

BachmannSaddleKit.jpg

The running board on this would be perfect for a Bachmann RWS-style Thomas model, don't you agree?

[rocor]

That's the problem. Sell in numbers. If it's going to sell then it surely would already be available RTR so it's pointless making as a kit that is made to be a cheap way into model railways.

 

 

If you are looking to sell plastic models as a recreational hobby then I would totally avoid OO gauge and go for one of the big scales. Plastic kit builders generally aren't interested in small models, they want as much detail as possible and a challenge. Look at the military models made by Tamiya or the large scale 1/48 and 1/24 scale aircraft. Much more interesting than a shake the box Spitfire that you can build in an hour. But it wouldn't be cheap.

 

 

 

 

Jason

I would be interested in building static model plastic kits of locomotives in larger sizes. Particularly models of early to middle period Victorian locomotives in say 1/32nd scale. This size would allow scope for plenty of detail. How much would I be willing to pay for such a kit?, certainly in the region that Trumpeters 1/35th locomotives are sold at. How much of a market would there be for such kits?, probably not enough to make them an economic proposition.

[PatB]

I would be interested in building static model plastic kits of locomotives in larger sizes. Particularly models of early to middle period Victorian locomotives in say 1/32nd scale. This size would allow scope for plenty of detail. How much would I be willing to pay for such a kit?, certainly in the region that Trumpeters 1/35th locomotives are sold at. How much of a market would there be for such kits?, probably not enough to make them an economic proposition.

Not plastic, but Occre do a couple of mixed media static loco kits that might fit the bill for you.

[Thunderforge]

I think there’s definitely a space on the market for ‘bottom end’ O gauge kits. 7mm seems to be dominated by expensive super detailed things which have limited market because of their ‘niche-ness’

For example you can get brass LNWR buffers, which are only useful to the modeller of LNWR of a certain era. Thus the company will release buffers for NER, SR, GCR, GWR, LSWR, etc, and have a lot of products with very narrow sales targets. Now I don’t want that to change, I think it’s awesome.

BUT if someone realeased a vacuum plastic kit for a 0-6-0 tank engine with say, two four wheeled carriages, including a cheap five pole motor, a roof switch and plastic wheels, it would appeal to a very broad range of people. Yes it wouldn’t be very good but it would be a cheap base to work up a ‘proper’ loco with Romford wheels added, or a kids carpet toy otherwise. Maybe a shelf piece like the Dapol plastic OO kits once weathered up?

 

O gauge used to be the top seller...

[cctransuk]

I think there’s definitely a space on the market for ‘bottom end’ O gauge kits. 7mm seems to be dominated by expensive super detailed things which have limited market because of their ‘niche-ness’

For example you can get brass LNWR buffers, which are only useful to the modeller of LNWR of a certain era. Thus the company will release buffers for NER, SR, GCR, GWR, LSWR, etc, and have a lot of products with very narrow sales targets. Now I don’t want that to change, I think it’s awesome.

BUT if someone realeased a vacuum plastic kit for a 0-6-0 tank engine with say, two four wheeled carriages, including a cheap five pole motor, a roof switch and plastic wheels, it would appeal to a very broad range of people. Yes it wouldn’t be very good but it would be a cheap base to work up a ‘proper’ loco with Romford wheels added, or a kids carpet toy otherwise. Maybe a shelf piece like the Dapol plastic OO kits once weathered up?

 

O gauge used to be the top seller...

 

Do 'Romford' make O gauge wheels?  ..... do they even exist nowadays?

 

"O gauge used to be the top seller..."; and clockwork was considered to be a perfectly acceptable mode of locomotion for model railways! Are you in a parallel universe that is still stuck in the pre-WW2 era?

 

"... if someone realeased a vacuum plastic kit for a 0-6-0 tank engine with say, two four wheeled carriages, including a cheap five pole motor, a roof switch and plastic wheels, it would appeal to a very broad range of people ..."; really - on what basis do you make that assertion? Hornby are dumping the Thomas the Tank Engine range - they don't seem to believe that there is much profit in the toy train market.

 

Can "... a vacuum plastic kit ..." realistically be built by your target market - or his Dad?

 

In Dad's Army speak - I think that we are entering the realms of fantasy, Pike!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[jjb1970]

I made some vacuum kits of aircraft many years ago, at one time vac-form kits filled quite a niche in the world of model aircraft kits. I always wondered whether it would not have been easier to just scratch build as they were quite a challenge to build to an acceptable standard.

[CKPR]

I think there’s definitely a space on the market for ‘bottom end’ O gauge kits. 7mm seems to be dominated by expensive super detailed things which have limited market because of their ‘niche-ness’

For example you can get brass LNWR buffers, which are only useful to the modeller of LNWR of a certain era. Thus the company will release buffers for NER, SR, GCR, GWR, LSWR, etc, and have a lot of products with very narrow sales targets. Now I don’t want that to change, I think it’s awesome.

BUT if someone realeased a vacuum plastic kit for a 0-6-0 tank engine with say, two four wheeled carriages, including a cheap five pole motor, a roof switch and plastic wheels, it would appeal to a very broad range of people. Yes it wouldn’t be very good but it would be a cheap base to work up a ‘proper’ loco with Romford wheels added, or a kids carpet toy otherwise. Maybe a shelf piece like the Dapol plastic OO kits once weathered up?

 

O gauge used to be the top seller...

 

I have vague recollections of an injection moulded kit for an 0-6-0T at least being advertised in the early 1980s - R&R models ? 

[laurenceb]

I have vague recollections of an injection moulded kit for an 0-6-0T at least being advertised in the early 1980s - R&R models ? 

85A

[Dava]

85A Models did a RTR Hunslet 15" 0-6-0ST some years back which was very good then and still worth having now, they go for around $150. Quite lightweight and apparently has to be deep frozen to dismantle to add weight. I have not yet done this with mine!

 

The plastic coupling rods are surprisingly durable.

 

For $25 or so more you can get a S/H Ixion 0-6-0ST or 0-4-0 diesel, less if you strike lucky.

 

I predict there will be bargains, overpriced stuff and big money brass at the G0G Doncaster show on 2 June. As modellers in the 'senior scale' [there may be a reason it was called that!] pass on, there will be lots of inventory coming onto the market in future years, including huge supplies of unbuilt, some unbuildable, metal kits.

[SD85]

An old thread but I will add my opinion that static plastic loco kits are an avenue I would like to see pursued a bit more; that said many of the posts here outline why no manufacturer is likely to produce them.

 

From the perspective of someone whose main interest in modelling centres around locos and who is planning an MPD layout set on the Southern Region in 1967, some more static kits would be a great way to inexpensively fill out the shed scene. I have been finding the Dapol Standard 4 kit to be of some use in this regard; it would have been great if Kitmaster/Airfix had also made a model of the rebuilt Bulleid Pacifics too.

[Jeff Smith]

Yes, reference some comments on this thread 

 

[friscopete]

I think printing will be the way to .Getting better all the time and cheap to set up if not to produce .Plastic kits cost tens of thousands.I have a Toma 009 shay  thats printed .Pricey and a bit brittle especially for a working shay but it shows the potential .Already bodys afre appearing on eBay that and very good an probably a printed master was used .L:et the plastic kit boys  play on their own .The world still needs more 1/35 Tigers.