End of diesels

[rockershovel]

Too true. Whilst failing to acknowledge the role they took in ensuring they could afford a half-decent, mock Tudor, 2.5 bedroom citadel in Penge, Bletchley or Guildford, and a mint Ford Escort, to allow same.

 

Ungrateful barstewards.

Let’s consider that issue... in the thirty-odd years I’ve lived in Peterborough, most of the local white-collar work has been sucked down the railway to London. Pearl Assurance, among others, tried to swim against that tide but couldn’t make it work, because of the balance between local property prices and rail fares. My son-in-law is a director of a family business, works two days a week in the London office, and freely admits that even for him, it is a problem making it cost-effective and has abandoned a study into providing telecommuting practices because of the cost to staff of travelling two or three days a week.

 

The relationship between commuters and the railway is much more nuanced than you suggest; but travel times haven’t improved on the ECML in thirty years. On South Coast routes, they probably haven’t significantly changed since the 1930s and frankly, the cattle-truck conditions aren’t any better.

[009 micro modeller]

Could somebody build a replica class 13 from a couple of withdrawn 08s? I would have thought the ability to haul heavy loads at low speed would be about right for some preserved lines.

[Dava]

I remember well the diesels going - well most of them. Seeking out Warships and Westerners around Birmingham / Worcester in the late 60's early 70's, then the mighty Deltics early 80's. We lost all our (WCML) D400'ers (50's) to the Western region very quickly around 1973 when the leckys started up to Glasgow. Rats and Big D's died quickly also (25's & 40's) early 80's, as did the Peaks (45 & 46).

 

Brush 4's (47's) were everywhere, along with 56's, EE type 1's & 3's (20's & 37's) Brush 2's (31's) and Gronks (08's). They died ever so slowly, hardly noticeable and yes some are still with us on the main line..

 

It was sad to see the lines of decrepit locos at the ERS recovery centre at Wigan Springs Branch a few years ago. They have all gone now.

 

More frightening / worrying was the decimation of the WCML Electric loco fleet. Lots of fine locos stored / scrapped / sent abroad. Just why did we not keep a strategic reserve of these fine machines ?

 

Brit15

http://aclocogroup.co.uk/stock.php

 

A small fleet, 4 out of 8 potentially operable. Are some class 90s still on sleeper duty or have they also gone?

 

Sadly, the next and final withdrawal of diesel superpower, the HST fleet, is underway - see separate thread. Yes, some will go onto a 'half life' in Scotland and West Country, but their days of premier fleet service seem numbered, fortunately East Mids look to be among the last to keep them.

 

Dava

Edited March 12, 2018 by Dava

[Steamport Southport]

http://aclocogroup.co.uk/stock.php

 

A small fleet, 4 out of 8 potentially operable. Are some class 89s still on sleeper duty or have they also gone?

 

Sadly, the next and final withdrawal of diesel superpower, the HST fleet, is underway - see separate thread. Yes, some will go onto a 'half life' in Scotland and West Country, but their days of premier fleet service seem numbered, fortunately East Mids look to be among the last to keep them.

 

Dava

 

Class 89s as a plural?

 

I thought there was only one built....

 

 

 

Jason

[Dava]

Class 89s as a plural?

 

I thought there was only one built....

 

 

 

Jason

Class 90's, corrected, they are still operational

[rodent279]

Even more so for EMU's.considering just what a huge proportion of the population used them for many decades in their daily lives. Even the NRM has not bothered to preserve anything but a very tiny sample. I understand the reasons for that, but in many aspects of museum life, many more examples of the most mundane and unromantic objects from past daily life have been preserved, especially road vehicles.

 

It is of note that, at The Museum of Liverpool, going back a couple of years, the "favourite" exhibit (according to blurb posted at the Help/Welcome Desk) was the single carriage retained from the Overhead Railway.

I have always thought, and said elsewhere in this forum, that the NRM is good at preserving the big sexy locos that Bert and Ada want to drool over, Mallard, various royal train coaches etc. However the is a large gap in that there is very little representation of what most people made most journeys in.

Few could afford high speed luxury trains, most people travelled in an EPB type emu, a MK1 suburban or similar, or some sort of dmu. Yet there is the 2BIL and a single car from an LNWR Euston-Watford set.

I know there are plenty of mk1's, a few mk1 suburbans and some dmu's elsewhere, but I think this area is under represented in the National Collection. Freight stock is similarly poorly catered for. I hope they will claim a 313 or a derivative, and a mk2 or mk3 to give us a feel for the Inter-City era.

I know we can't preserve everything, and I know the NRM has limited space, but I feel more effort could be made to represent the everyday, mundane railway.

[Chris M]

I have no knowledge of the various 3rd rail electrics so can't comment. My mundane stock memories arise from travelling to and from work courtesy of class 150s. I was so pleased when they were replaced by 172s and I certainly would not want to see a class 150 preserved anywhere. Noisy, unreliable, cramped, smelly (ok that might be the passengers); I would cut them all up myself for free if asked. Shame they are still being inflicted on others in the country and even more a shame that they aren't the worst trains still in use on the National network.

 

An original Mk3 coach in original condition standing next to a refurbished Mk3 as used by Chiltern would make an interesting comparison in a museum in years to come. Slam versus power doors, decor etc. Some 40 year old stock was very good when introduced and is still providing very good service today.  It deserves to be remembered when it eventually goes.

[Fairburn]

Not in my opinion. A Class 50 sounds nothing like an HGV.

 

Huge Great Vacuum?

[Reorte]

Has to be said, though; commuters, generally speaking, heartily dislike DMUs and EMUs of all sorts for their crowded, inadequate conditions, and wouldn’t contribute a bent ha’penny to preserve one.

That's most trains these days. Multiple units do have their downsides from a passenger point of view but I don't think it's fair to hold them responsible for being crowded - that's too short a train for the number of passengers whatever makes it move.

['CHARD]

True, but I think it’s really because diesels don’t have the emotional resonance of steam. Ultimately, they mostly sound like an HGV, and THERE’s a category of transport with very few friends indeed. My main exposure to diesels was commuting in dirty, run-down LHCS with unreliable heating, unreliable lighting and a fair chance of a serious breakdown before the week was out (I particularly remember a week in which I didn’t complete a single journey on time).

 

Diesels came in at a time when private car ownership was rising rapidly, as was cheap air travel. They never acquired that rosy, sunlit backlighting of buckets and spades, crabbing on the rocks and chips on the sea wall that steam basks in. Who, really, is nostalgic for the inflation, power cuts, strikes and unrest of the later 60s and 70s?

 

Again, I beg to differ here.  Whilst DMUs may sound - not unexpectedly - like HGVs, main line diesel locos have all had a presence and gravitas.

 

From the whistling and chopping 20s, the ear-shredding Baby Sulzers, snorting 31s and tractor-like 37s, to the hammering Hymeks, all the twin-engined types and not forgetting the legion of Big Sulzers, and the very charismatic 50s, as previously mentioned.

 

For enthusiasts of my generation, our only memories of steam are those of a pre-school child.  I grew up with diesels, and successively mourned the loss of many favourite classes: Westerns, Deltics, 25s, 40s, Peaks and all the rest.  But as a technology they haven't been superseded by a revolutionary shift in innovation the same way steam was.  Hence my 4/8/68 reference.  Instead, as others have pointed out, we've celebrated lots of mini-farewells.  

 

As a teenager I wasn't so impacted by the malaise of the seventies and eighties.  Instead, the years of rail blue were soundtracked by fantastic music, from glam through punk and beyond - so those years are most definitely my most cherished era.

Edited March 12, 2018 by 'CHARD

[Chris M]

Mentioned was made above about preserved lines having too many diesel shunters. From the SVR news that popped through the door this morning the Severn Valley has five 08s, two 09s and one 11. Three are in use, three are being worked on and two are “unserviceable and not expected to run in the foreseeable future”.

They use one at each end of the line as shunter for positioning stock and the third operational one is used by the PW gang. Three in use and three being worked on is probably where they need to be. Sounds to me like the other two are effectively spare parts stores.

[Dunsignalling]

Could somebody build a replica class 13 from a couple of withdrawn 08s? I would have thought the ability to haul heavy loads at low speed would be about right for some preserved lines.

A single 08 has more than enough power to cope with anything a heritage railway is likely to throw at it. 

 

Their LMS ancestors were designed to shunt trains for 8Fs and Garratts to haul and, after steam ended, BR expected them to marshal any train a single Type 4/5 mainline loco could pull. Had they not been able to do so, we would have seen a larger replacement created.

 

The 13s were converted to handle the rather more demanding task of hump shunting.  

 

John

Edited March 12, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Mike Storey]

Let’s consider that issue... in the thirty-odd years I’ve lived in Peterborough, most of the local white-collar work has been sucked down the railway to London. Pearl Assurance, among others, tried to swim against that tide but couldn’t make it work, because of the balance between local property prices and rail fares. My son-in-law is a director of a family business, works two days a week in the London office, and freely admits that even for him, it is a problem making it cost-effective and has abandoned a study into providing telecommuting practices because of the cost to staff of travelling two or three days a week.

 

The relationship between commuters and the railway is much more nuanced than you suggest; but travel times haven’t improved on the ECML in thirty years. On South Coast routes, they probably haven’t significantly changed since the 1930s and frankly, the cattle-truck conditions aren’t any better.

 

Eh?? And that has to do with preserving the more mundane, if not loved, parts of our traction and rolling stock heritage, in exactly what way?

[Mike Storey]

I have always thought, and said elsewhere in this forum, that the NRM is good at preserving the big sexy locos that Bert and Ada want to drool over, Mallard, various royal train coaches etc. However the is a large gap in that there is very little representation of what most people made most journeys in.

Few could afford high speed luxury trains, most people travelled in an EPB type emu, a MK1 suburban or similar, or some sort of dmu. Yet there is the 2BIL and a single car from an LNWR Euston-Watford set.

I know there are plenty of mk1's, a few mk1 suburbans and some dmu's elsewhere, but I think this area is under represented in the National Collection. Freight stock is similarly poorly catered for. I hope they will claim a 313 or a derivative, and a mk2 or mk3 to give us a feel for the Inter-City era.

I know we can't preserve everything, and I know the NRM has limited space, but I feel more effort could be made to represent the everyday, mundane railway.

 

To be fair, last time I was there, the NRM have retained a 4 VEP too, but in a very sorry state.

[rodent279]

To be fair, last time I was there, the NRM have retained a 4 VEP too, but in a very sorry state.

 

I wasn't aware they had a VEP, but even that's only part of the story.

 

But it's also less glamourous things like the 71, 84 & APT-P power car, which have been left to decay. They are all unique now, yet not in my view being conserved like they should be.

Yes, I know the 84 is in the hands of the ACLG now, but before it went to them, it was allowed to get into a very sorry state.

 

I know this sounds like I'm NRM-bashing-I don't mean to, but I do think they have tended to overlook the less glamourous, crowd-pulling side of things. I don't doubt for one moment that a certain big green kettle named after a racehorse belongs there, but that's only part of the story. There's a lot more to it to tell.

Edited March 12, 2018 by rodent279

[Titan]

. I don't doubt for one moment that a certain big green kettle named after a racehorse belongs there, but that's only part of the story. There's a lot more to it to tell.

 

Blue Peter?!?! 

[GordonC]

I wasn't aware they had a VEP, but even that's only part of the story.

 

But it's also less glamourous things like the 71, 84 & APT-P power car, which have been left to decay. They are all unique now, yet not in my view being conserved like they should be.

Yes, I know the 84 is in the hands of the ACLG now, but before it went to them, it was allowed to get into a very sorry state.

 

I know this sounds like I'm NRM-bashing-I don't mean to, but I do think they have tended to overlook the less glamourous, crowd-pulling side of things. I don't doubt for one moment that a certain big green kettle named after a racehorse belongs there, but that's only part of the story. There's a lot more to it to tell.

 

The NRM seem to be not be the only museum which seems more interested in preserving steam locos than diesel and electrics. I think it scandalous that the Glasgow Riverside Transport Museum didn't see it fit to save even a single vehicle of a Class 303 / 311 Blue Train which served much of the city's electrified network for 40 years. The 303s were even built in Paisley!!!

 

Mundane trams / trolleybuses / buses and steam engines of the 1960s and earlier are preserved in safety undercover for future generations while those that came afterwards have little to remember

[Dava]

I pass www.ukrl.co.uk at Leicester former TMD sidings several times a week. They have a 'strategic reserve' of class 56's [some accident damaged ] & 37s + their own tractor fleet. 50008 is there, looks operational. The 56s can be re-engined for further device but don't know if they've sold any so far. Some are ex-Fertis and came from Burton. Add in the class 60 ghost fleet at Toton and there's a lot of old metal in the sidings. A 60 is worthy of preservation as the final UK built fleet diesel loco.

 

Dava

[rockershovel]

That's most trains these days. Multiple units do have their downsides from a passenger point of view but I don't think it's fair to hold them responsible for being crowded - that's too short a train for the number of passengers whatever makes it move.

Its not only train length. There’s no possible excuse for 3+2 seating, especially the low-back sort, and virtually no luggage or litter bin space, on trains working 60-75 minute journey times. Nor the filthy floors which seemed incapable of being cleaned from November to Easter, especially in the days when Peterborough station car park was pretty much a disused coal depot... nor the windows running with condensation from the lack of either ventilation or air conditioning (foul in summer..) ...no, the early EMUs were perfectly awful, and fully deserved their reputation.

 

The modern ones are much better. The 3+2 seating is gone, for one thing, and there are more tables. The floors are much cleaner. On my occasional trips to Town I travel in reasonable comfort for at times, less than half the price of the HST service and don’t feel too hard done by.

Edited March 12, 2018 by rockershovel

[Rugd1022]

Its not just diesel locomotives, look what's happened to all those HAA hoppers.

 

Rob

 

One of the regular Signalmen at Bardon Hill and Moira boxes used to be a shunter at Drakelow Power Station, on one particular day he noticed the very first HAA built sitting in a rake of condemned wagons at Drakelow, he tried his best to get it put aside and saved but sadly his pleas were ignored and it was cut up.

[Luke Piewalker]

The NRM seem to be not be the only museum which seems more interested in preserving steam locos than diesel and electrics. I think it scandalous that the Glasgow Riverside Transport Museum didn't see it fit to save even a single vehicle of a Class 303 / 311 Blue Train which served much of the city's electrified network for 40 years. The 303s were even built in Paisley!!!

 

Mundane trams / trolleybuses / buses and steam engines of the 1960s and earlier are preserved in safety undercover for future generations while those that came afterwards have little to remember

There's a 303 at Bo'ness, and a 311 at Summerlee. The one at Sumerlee could really do with a shed though...

[brack]

The NRM seem to be not be the only museum which seems more interested in preserving steam locos than diesel and electrics. I think it scandalous that the Glasgow Riverside Transport Museum didn't see it fit to save even a single vehicle of a Class 303 / 311 Blue Train which served much of the city's electrified network for 40 years. The 303s were even built in Paisley!!!

I'm sure they'd love to have one dangled from the roof at a jaunty angle in a place where nobody can see it properly. That seems to be how they prefer to display rail stuff.

 

In defence of the nrm there are several varied freight vehicles in Shildon and a southern emu, plus less fashionable things like the simplex.

[GordonC]

There's a 303 at Bo'ness, and a 311 at Summerlee. The one at Sumerlee could really do with a shed though...

 

it was seeing the state of that 311, only 2 coaches left and hidden away round the back all plated up that made me think why there isn't one nicely preserved under cover like all those trams and buses ... even just a driving coach with an original interior. It can hardly be called 'preserved' as it is and surely is only heading one way

 

But yet they'll go and drag an enormous steam monster back from South Africa while not preserving what was on their doorstep that folk actually used and would remember.

[FPH 603]

it was seeing the state of that 311, only 2 coaches left and hidden away round the back all plated up that made me think why there isn't one nicely preserved under cover like all those trams and buses ... even just a driving coach with an original interior. It can hardly be called 'preserved' as it is and surely is only heading one way

 

But yet they'll go and drag an enormous steam monster back from South Africa while not preserving what was on their doorstep that folk actually used and would remember.

And I thought semi modern preservation here in NSW was full of c**p. Seriously just disgraceful with the 311 though, makes me want to snap up the thing and put it in my backyard. (Like that will ever happen! )

[Classsix T]

What there hasn't been, of course, is the equivalent of an August 4th or August 11th 1968 final curtain.

But in terms of "farewells", that example plus the Deltic one as the most publicised, the Cl.56 & Cl.58 for me personally, were more a case of "We'll see you later then?"

 

Subsequent events have taught us these dates merely mark the cessation of diagrams by the then largest fleet operator.

 

I'll admit I was rather more assured of this as I watched 56078 and 56115 depart York than anyone at the end of steam was though! (Indeed, we had the law on our side with competitive tendering of disposed assets, for which I can thank privatisation I suppose.)

 

C6T.