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End of diesels





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#51 JeremyC

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 16:11

,..........
But yet they'll go and drag an enormous steam monster back from South Africa while not preserving what was on their doorstep that folk actually used and would remember.

But that monster was built in Glasgow so its presence is appropriate.

Edited by JeremyC, 13 March 2018 - 16:11 .

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#52 admiles

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 16:25

Who, really, is nostalgic for the inflation, power cuts, strikes and unrest of the later 60s and 70s?

 

Brexiteers..... :tomato:


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#53 Reorte

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 17:00

Brexiteers..... :tomato:

Oh aren't you Mr Funny. Or just one of those that thinks everything comes in one big all-in-one package so comes to the conclusion that liking one thing that's gone must involve liking everything that's gone?


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#54 Classsix T

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 17:30

Handbag for Mr. Grumpy please.

C6T.
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#55 Reorte

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 17:33

Handbag for Mr. Grumpy please.

C6T.

This isn't the place for snide political remarks, or finding it amusing that people get irritated by them.

 

Anyway I've never met anyone grumpy who doesn't seem to have their head screwed firmly on :)


Edited by Reorte, 13 March 2018 - 17:43 .

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#56 Classsix T

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 18:01

This isn't the place for snide political remarks, or finding it amusing that people get irritated by them.


You're new here then, obviously.

C6T. (I know you aren't friend, you'd just save yourself a ton of grief if you accept the forum is a broad church. I was myself reminded of this recently when I saw something that offended me personally. Count to ten, deep breath, meh, idiot. Carry on...)
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#57 Mike Storey

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 21:20

This isn't the place for snide political remarks, or finding it amusing that people get irritated by them.

 

Anyway I've never met anyone grumpy who doesn't seem to have their head screwed firmly on :)

 

I have, and in abundance. Especially when they are completely self-assured as to their own correctness.  :nono:

 

Anyway, back to diesel etc preservation grumping.


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#58 EddieK

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 23:16

When steam went, in August 1968, that was the end of it in normal service. New builds had stopped (apart from more recent new-build fakes) and a few years later we saw the emergence of the nostalgia market. Ever since the very beginning, older designs of steam loco were superseded by newer designs and so-on until steam was concluded nearly 50 years ago.

Since before the BR Modernisation Plan, diesels have entered service and eventually been superseded by better or more modern designs. This is still happening in 2018, with Class 68s for example. The subtle difference is that the private sector is still able to use older designs that have been phased-out by their original operators - see the various 37s, 47s, 50s, and whatever else that are still doing a "real job" rather than trading on nostalgia. 

Until the electric wires can reach every last mile of the railway, the regeneration of the diesel fleet will go on, or at least until some other form of propulsion system is invented. Only then will we see the "End of Diesel".



#59 Spannerman

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 03:15

Going back a few posts, what did become of the 58's?
Are they still used or are any preserved?

Nik

#60 Tim Hall

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 08:17

Going back a few posts, what did become of the 58's?
Are they still used or are any preserved?

Nik

 

One preserved, but not in working order at present. Frames of another to be the basis for the Ivatt Diesel Recreation. Think some working abroad, none in UK, I'm fairly sure.



#61 GordonC

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 09:22

One preserved, but not in working order at present. Frames of another to be the basis for the Ivatt Diesel Recreation. Think some working abroad, none in UK, I'm fairly sure.

 

I think its possibly only a handful still working in the Netherlands with a fair few dumped out of use in France



#62 admiles

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 12:33

Oh aren't you Mr Funny. Or just one of those that thinks everything comes in one big all-in-one package so comes to the conclusion that liking one thing that's gone must involve liking everything that's gone?

 

Nothing like making a few assumptions. I have more than a few very good reasons to not be too keen on Brexit and some of those who support it but I feel my

earlier comment was pretty light-hearted (use of smilie). If that comment offended you, then I apologise.


Edited by admiles, 14 March 2018 - 12:36 .

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#63 scouser

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 17:54

I'm thinking, when it comes to preserving loco 's, what about space?
Big old things loco's and the steam fans seam to think there are too many preserved lines and they are financial hurting each other.
Is there room for more?

Edited by scouser, 14 March 2018 - 17:55 .


#64 Nearholmer

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 18:06

What, you mean like that Musk bloke, launching some into space?

I suppose the inert conditions might allow them to remain intact until there are sufficient funds to fix them up.

And, yes, I think there is room for more up there. The sun isn’t obscured by the orbiting cloud of Class 37s yet.

Edited by Nearholmer, 14 March 2018 - 18:08 .

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#65 scouser

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 19:39

What, you mean like that Musk bloke, launching some into space?
I suppose the inert conditions might allow them to remain intact until there are sufficient funds to fix them up.
And, yes, I think there is room for more up there. The sun isn’t obscured by the orbiting cloud of Class 37s yet.

Yes, I see where you're coming from but before you ask, no you can't put a 37 in my garden!
Swimbo won't let me..

#66 Mike Storey

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 20:46

When steam went, in August 1968, that was the end of it in normal service. New builds had stopped (apart from more recent new-build fakes) and a few years later we saw the emergence of the nostalgia market. Ever since the very beginning, older designs of steam loco were superseded by newer designs and so-on until steam was concluded nearly 50 years ago.

Since before the BR Modernisation Plan, diesels have entered service and eventually been superseded by better or more modern designs. This is still happening in 2018, with Class 68s for example. The subtle difference is that the private sector is still able to use older designs that have been phased-out by their original operators - see the various 37s, 47s, 50s, and whatever else that are still doing a "real job" rather than trading on nostalgia. 

Until the electric wires can reach every last mile of the railway, the regeneration of the diesel fleet will go on, or at least until some other form of propulsion system is invented. Only then will we see the "End of Diesel".

 

I concur, except that, whilst diesels as a form of propulsion, will continue for some years yet, some key examples of its stages of development will not (unless something changes), and that applies to electric traction even more. That was the dilemma facing those who attempted to preserve relevant examples of steam development, long before it ceased to be a standard form of traction in the UK. Whither the Gresley A1, perhaps one of the most pertinent lost classes? Let alone several other less celebrated types, such as "Hush, Hush".

 

Your comment on "fake" new-builds has relevance on attitudes to preservation. I am not criticising your comment, which is highly orthodox in Britain. In the UK, it has been anathema to re-create, rather than preserve, the past, whether it be steam locomotives, Norman castles or classic cars. Such re-creations are indeed termed "fakes". But here in France, whose record on preserving the past is comparatively lamentable, especially on the railway, such re-creations, especially in the field of chateaux, neolithic camps or in seafaring, has been a revelation, to me anyway. There are excellent examples of re-built chateaux which give you a much better feel of how things probably were, in their day, than any preserved ruin (pile of rubble) in the UK. Their "fake" old ships are quite mesmerising. But they have no equivalent of Tornado or its subsequent standard or narrow gauge proteges, as yet (AFAIK).

 

True, the UK has Beamish, the Castle Museum at York, Ironbridge and several others, but all of these are careful to ensure they emphasise that they have re-built examples from authentic original sources, with almost an apology for where they have been obliged to re-create aspects using modern materials.

 

I would earnestly propose to the committee, that we must seriously reconsider our attitude to preservation. Is it for the sake of it, or is it to recreate history, in whatever form that needs, in order to experience it and enjoy the nostalgia (for OG's) and learn from it (YG's)? Does "authenticity" override everything? If so, why? Discuss. You have 30 days. Turn over your papers now.


Edited by Mike Storey, 14 March 2018 - 20:50 .


#67 rodent279

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 21:04

I concur, except that, whilst diesels as a form of propulsion, will continue for some years yet, some key examples of its stages of development will not (unless something changes), and that applies to electric traction even more. That was the dilemma facing those who attempted to preserve relevant examples of steam development, long before it ceased to be a standard form of traction in the UK. Whither the Gresley A1, perhaps one of the most pertinent lost classes? Let alone several other less celebrated types, such as "Hush, Hush".

Your comment on "fake" new-builds has relevance on attitudes to preservation. I am not criticising your comment, which is highly orthodox in Britain. In the UK, it has been anathema to re-create, rather than preserve, the past, whether it be steam locomotives, Norman castles or classic cars. Such re-creations are indeed termed "fakes". But here in France, whose record on preserving the past is comparatively lamentable, especially on the railway, such re-creations, especially in the field of chateaux, neolithic camps or in seafaring, has been a revelation, to me anyway. There are excellent examples of re-built chateaux which give you a much better feel of how things probably were, in their day, than any preserved ruin (pile of rubble) in the UK. Their "fake" old ships are quite mesmerising. But they have no equivalent of Tornado or its subsequent standard or narrow gauge proteges, as yet (AFAIK).

True, the UK has Beamish, the Castle Museum at York, Ironbridge and several others, but all of these are careful to ensure they emphasise that they have re-built examples from authentic original sources, with almost an apology for where they have been obliged to re-create aspects using modern materials.

I would earnestly propose to the committee, that we must seriously reconsider our attitude to preservation. Is it for the sake of it, or is it to recreate history, in whatever form that needs, in order to experience it and enjoy the nostalgia (for OG's) and learn from it (YG's)? Does "authenticity" override everything? If so, why? Discuss. You have 30 days. Turn over your papers now.

I don't really have a big killer answer to that, other than "preservation", in whatever form (rebuild/recreation/authentic original) should also serve to educate, and to extend our knowledge. I agree entirely that preserving a "ruin" has it's place, but I'd love to see one ore two ruins, maybe of an abbey or monastry, or Roman/Viking etc, restored as far as possible to how it would have been. Great if you can use original construction methods, but if not, so what, it'll still be more illuminating than a pile of stones.
Regarding railways, I think maybe the opportunity could/should be taken in recreating some of these lost designs, such as the A1, P2 etc, to improve on them. As 6023 was such a hulk, and there are already 2 complete Kings, one operational, would it really have been a massive loss to "upgrade" it? Fit roller bearings-apparently parts were delivered for some to be so modified in the late 1950's, but it was never done. Maybe even roller big ends & coupling rods-I think some late German Neubauloks had roller bearings throughout.
I don't know, maybe those things aren't practical, but preservation doesn't just have to mean rigidly, slavishly following what has been, recreating the past, it can also mean showing what might have been.

Edit-what I said about 6023 is not meant as a dig at the team who have restored it. They've done an admirable job restoring something that most people thought impossible. Well done.

Edited by rodent279, 15 March 2018 - 11:29 .

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#68 andy stroud

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 21:18

One of the regular Signalmen at Bardon Hill and Moira boxes used to be a shunter at Drakelow Power Station, on one particular day he noticed the very first HAA built sitting in a rake of condemned wagons at Drakelow, he tried his best to get it put aside and saved but sadly his pleas were ignored and it was cut up.

I thought that the prototype mgr wagon was preserved at Shildon?


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#69 brack

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 21:28

I thought that the prototype mgr wagon was preserved at Shildon?


It says 350000 on it. Not sure it matters particularly which one it is, but the nrm saw fit to keep one. Fitting that it is in shildon
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#70 The Johnster

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 15:12

I have been aboard the replica 'Matthew', the ship in which John Cabot sailed to Newfoundland from Bristol in 1495, and the replica of Cook's 'Endeavour'.  These are working ships built to modern certification, but present a very realistic impression of what it was like to work and sail aboard them; one is left in awe at the men who braved the North Atlantic in the tiny 'Matthew' especially.  Only the smell is not recreated, thankfully...

 

Friendly, knowledgable crews and good research have gone a long way into making these replicas a success, as has the ready confession that some of what has gone into them is guesstimation at best.  There were at least hull line and general arrangement drawings to work from for 'Endeavour', but only for her Naval conversion from Whitby Collier form; 'Matthew' is reconstructed from typical late 15th century practice and contemporary pictures.  

 

So, is Tornado a true Thompson A1?  I would say that she is; built to Thompson's design but using modern methods, and for the purpose of making profit for her operators, she is in no way fake or even, to my mind, a replica, but the penultimate member of her class so far.


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#71 Davey

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Posted 15 March 2018 - 19:29

Brexiteers..... :tomato:

 

Bad loser!!!

 

Davey


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#72 Dava

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Posted 16 March 2018 - 19:58

Replica locos have to be built to modern engineering and safety standards which leads to design, technical and manufacturing changes, as well as the chance to correct defects in the original design, which is why the A1 and P2 in particular will differ slightly from the original designs. So they're are not copies but improved versions. Presumably other replicas in less advanced stages will also vary from the original designs, Check also the new-build Fairlies which are larger than the originals.

Dava
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#73 Northmoor

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 10:46

More frightening / worrying was the decimation of the WCML Electric loco fleet. Lots of fine locos stored / scrapped / sent abroad. Just why did we not keep a strategic reserve of these fine machines ?

A Strategic reserve - what for?

 

As someone who has been quite closely involved with the ACLG since it formed, I'm not sure what this unexploited UK market is that we've missed out on for our 40-50+ year old electric locomotives.  However, new start-up operators in Hungary and Bulgaria do provide a market and at least they are getting used.  Well done to Europhoenix for spotting that market.  Having seen how electric locomotives deteriorate when out of use, I'd much rather they were drawing amps in Hungary than attracting condensation at Long Marston.


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#74 Holmside

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Posted 11 May 2018 - 11:35

As a volunteer in the loco dept of a preserved line, it seems to me that one reason for there being apparently fewer diesel loco preservations than steam is because the latter is basically a bit of an ‘agricultural’ machine. As a consequence, relatively unskilled volunteer labour can be utilised in the maintenance and rebuilding of steam locomotive and their components. In contrast, to perform maintenance/ refurbishment functions on a diesel loco (replacing piston rings, or crankshaft bearings for example, or , say, effecting repair of a main generator after a flashover) I think requires specialist skills that generally beyond those available in a pool of volunteer labour and will , therefore, require an outside agency to complete with consequent expense.
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#75 MarkC

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Posted 12 May 2018 - 07:43

 

So, is Tornado a true Thompson A1?  I would say that she is; built to Thompson's design but using modern methods, and for the purpose of making profit for her operators, she is in no way fake or even, to my mind, a replica, but the penultimate member of her class so far.

Surprised that nobody has picked up on this heresy!  :onthequiet:

 

I'm sure you meant Peppercorn - and I concur with your assessment of the design being 'tweaked', in order to comply with modern requirements and standards. She is indeed regarded as the next A1 to follow on from the original 49 - and as such is presently the ultimate A1 - unless you know of another one being built?


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