Hill Top Quarries

[Zunnan]

With the incoming glut of AB tanks, and another round of Pecketts, I thought I'd best come up with something that I could put them to use on rather than sit in a box awaiting the occasional foray out to the club. Not being one for convention I thought I'd come up with something a little bit different, and as Bournville has some history (and permission to use) with D J Norton subject matter, I thought I'd use the same source material for inspiration. There lurks deep in Nortons material photographs of Clee Hill languishing close to closure. Ever since working up there on the overhead phone route and measuring out the surviving features while I was there (as you do), I've held an interest in the old workings up at Dhustone. There have been a few layouts of the bottom of the hill, less so the top end, so my thoughts have turned to that eternal pest of a question; 'why not?'

 

 

As its not intended to be much more than a working diorama, I have much compressed the distance from the pits to the bridge. There should really be a set of trap points on the 3 rail trackwork before the bridge on that fearsome 1:9 incline. The bridge is a bit of a cop out, the original has long since been replaced by a corrugated steel culvert, so I've improvised the details into something at least passable. Kestrel water tower kits are great for smaller girders! Looking the other way...

 

 

The pits where the rope passed below the track, plus tightly curved section where 3 rails become 4 and winding house also need to be squeezed into the 4 foot long layout. A lot of plastic strip and 3 bolt chairs make for quite the imposing piece of trackwork! Simple though it is. On the right was situated the rather ramshackle timber built engine shed, propped up against the pretty much non stop gusts. For the purposes of this layout I'm going to reverse the entry to the shed so that it actually fits in to the layout. And I still need to figure a plausible scenic break for the top of a rather large hill!

 

Much work remains to be done, operationally there is almost nothing there for a locomotive, no matter how diminutive. So to provide a bit more interest the rear of the layout is going to be turned over to a small shunting puzzle type arrangement. Being on a hill, naturally its of a higher level than the incline top. To connect the two I'm going to resort to a simple cassette system, so that in essence wagons are brought up to the top via the incline and shuffled off scene by small tank, they are then reintroduced at the higher level where a spot of shunting can then take place. Pretty much your typical empties in, loads out (and back down) arrangement.

 

Slow going with the time available, plus club commitments, but hopefully there will be some work for the ABs I have incoming not too long after they arrive!

 

The original source material, for those not familiar with it, is in the link below.

http://www.photobydjnorton.com/CleeHillIncline.html

Edited March 13, 2018 by Zunnan

[Ruston]

I'm looking forward to seeing this develop. I've only ever seen one rope-worked incline modelled before and this could be a first for this section of the forum.

[Zunnan]

I think the thing most in the layouts favour as far as actually 'rope' working the incline is the runner wagons they used at Clee Hill. The few photographs I can find show considerably reinforced chassis with low slung drawgear which allowed the actual load to be buffered uphill from the runner, minimising the risk of runaways. My current thinking is to replicate this in its entirety with the runner wagons being kitbuilt, well, royally butchered to contain as much lead as is possible so that they can drag a train over the hump and down the incline without the need to 'launch' them with a locomotive. For reliabilities sake I'll probably side with Kadees as there is next to no conversion work required. A small raft of wagons can be propelled up and coupled to the runner by locomotive with the couplers 'delayed', the locomotive can then move off elsewhere before the runner is released to drag its train down through the bridge to its cassette. It sounds simple! Time will tell, when I finally get around to sorting out a mechanism for providing the drive...and what to use as rope!

[5050]

I did a drawing of the runner wagon for the now defunct 'Modelling Railways Illustrated' magazine in the mid-90's.  I can see if I can find the issue.  I based the drawing on photos and I know of at least one model that has been built using it! (Chris Hewitt's 'Angel Bank' layout)

[Zunnan]

Any information regarding the runner(s) would be most gratefully received. At the moment my assumptions are wooden 9' chassis with brake gear more akin to that of a brake van, it appears to be an amalgam of an open wagon cut down to one plank with a brake stand mounted centrally and running boards. My initial thoughts are to use the kit of a fixed end RCH open and cut it down to a single plank with the door removed, leaving off the vee hangers and brake levers and finding something suitable from a brake van to replace them. For weight; replacing the floor with sheet lead scribed with planking, and double skin the lead underneath between the chassis and cobbling up the drawgear in brass should make for a weighty little beast. Hopefully I'm not too wide off the mark, any information confirming my initial plans or to the contrary is most welcomed.

[5050]

I'm trying to remember what Geraint Hughes used for the cable on his Cromford & High Peak layout.  It might have been some sort of braided heavy duty fishing line??   Have a Google for it or search on here. He is a member I'm sure.  Gordon A. is another who is interested in this - and he is not alone!

 

I think the wheelbase of the runner wagons was less than 9', they were a 'rebuild' of some ex-LNWR 'break vehicles' I think.  I'll have to dig out the drawing etc. and check!  My memory may be playing tricks.

[Zunnan]

Braided fishing line has crossed my mind to use, plenty of subtle colours readily available and shouldn't fray or stretch excessively. I should really cobble up a test rig at some point, it only needs to take a raft of 3-4 wagons plus runner a distance of 30 inches or so. I reckon testing with twice the load and distance could be entertaining and fruitful, and I think I may have a suitable mechanism to hand assuming its geared low enough. I'll have to take a trip to Eustaces when I have chance to see what lines they have and take things from there.

 

Re the runner, I think you may be on to something there. The chassis compares well with a LNWR D16 four wheel 10t brake van, which gets me wondering about the London Road models kit...

[Gordon A]

Yes as 5050 has stated I have quite an interest in the branch, but focussed on Bitterley at the foot of the incline.

I purchased a Bill Bedford LNWR wagon to act as a runner but am interested in your approach.

 

I have started on a small freelance cameo inspired by the foot of the incline, which is on hold at the moment.

 

Robin Whittle's Sheep Pasture, Cromford and High Peak, may be of interest to you.

 

Gordon A

Edited March 13, 2018 by Gordon A

[5050]

Found the magazine with the drawing, it is the June 1996 edition of Modelling Railways Illustrated.  I drew it to 7mm/foot which fits nicely onto an A4 sheet.  As thought, I made a note that the genesis of the runners was a brake van illustrated on a drawing in the HMRS archive, no.1110, an LNWR Earlestown (no. 37) product of 1877.  A copy of it was published in the HMRS Journal Volume 5 issue no. 5 with a follow up in no. 6.

 

The wheelbase is 8'6", slightly 'odd' but I suppose that if you are not slavishly following the prototype then a 9' version may be acceptable.  I never got round to building my own model.  However, it's still on my modelling bucket list - along with many many other possibles!

[Zunnan]

That tallies up nicely with information held by the LNWRS, if its not a D16 then its very close to it. Drawings of vehicles pre D16 no longer exist, presumably as they were extinct before the 1903 Diagram Book was put together, but the 8'6" wheelbase is spot on with the D16 drawings, as is the bolt pattern on the chassis, brake hangers and foot boards. I shall endeavour to source a copy of J'96 MRI, but I think with the information above, it is pretty much nailed on that the runners were based upon these vehicles. Now it remains to be seen whether a runner or two can be put together from a D16 kit, or whether another route is viable. I think knowing that bit more about what I'm looking at and its origins, some LNWR vans may well end up undergoing a bit of a transformation!

 

I was wondering where I got the idea of using N Gauge wheelsets mounted face to face on the axle for the pulleys, this was how Robin Whittle produced them for Sheep Pasture. Absolutely fantastic layout that one, I never did ask how he got the incline working. Might have been handy to find out, though the principal of operation is considerably different with Clee Hill and the runners.

[avonside1563]

Looks a great start, will follow this with interest as a group of us from here visited the remains of Clee Hill incline a couple of years ago.

[Zunnan]

As is usual with my modelling, progress is a bit on the hindered side. Today has mostly ended up in getting the cork down, which finally puts me in a position to begin laying track. The pits track section was built on a styrene base sized so that the railhead will (should....hopefully!) match up with Peco bullhead laid on the cork. I was considering C&L throughout, but with my sometimes glacial activity I've deemed it better to use off the shelf to get things moving. Having a bit of time to kill while the cork dried I took the chance to throw a lick of paint into the pits.

 

 

 

Most of the structures on site were red brick, but the traces of the trench I seem to recall being of engineering blue brick with red inclusions/contamination, which is what I've aimed at reproducing. That Wills English bond really does betray its origins! Once they are filled and surrounded with weeds and given a waft over with the air brush to tie everything together, they shouldn't look too bad. The eagle eyed will notice a distinct lack of check rails...that comes entirely down to building the base for the model in 4mm to the foot and completely forgetting that 00 track isn't 4' 8 1/4" before it was too late!

Edited March 14, 2018 by Zunnan

[Zunnan]

To bring things right up to date, construction of the winding house was started some time ago and reached a point seen in the first post; a condition which it has sat in for months, awaiting details such as door and windows framing and opening out. Dimensions were taken from the assumption of a 6'6" door frame and using the few existing photographs to fill in the missing measurements. Brick counting wasn't really possible, and the sketch produced from my guessed measurements rather surprisingly wasn't too far off what remained of the foundations when I measured them up more than 10 years ago. Its not even close to 100% accurate, but it passes muster as far as I'm concerned.

 

Pretty straightforward in construction, its a simple styrene sheet box overlaid with brick plasticard layered where needed to provide relief in places such as the chimney and foundation. Barge boards were suitably sized styrene strip which I dragged a rough file over to scour a wood grain into them, and the roof tiles made up from individual bits of card glued in place while 'watching' a film I didn't want to watch with SWMBO. Over the last few evenings, while waiting for other stuff to dry, I've been steadily working through the snag list before it reached a stage where it can finally be given a coat of primer. Still on the to do list are painting it up and the window glazing. I'm envisioning using CD case plastic with the framing scribed into the surface, the windows are all non standard sizes so an etch isn't really viable for such a one off.

 

 

 

 

And finally, the side seen from the layout front...If I ever consider exhibiting, this is what will be seen. A plain wall!

 

 

When plonked in place, even in its primer, things are starting to come together. Some Peco bullhead was chucked in place beyond the C&L homebrew, I must admit I was sceptical at first, but the railheads actually match up with no further work needed to the roadbed.

[009 micro modeller]

I like this a lot. Having been walking on Clee Hill I was interested to learn more about the old buildings. I wonder if the top scenic break could be formed by mist?

[Zunnan]

As much as I'd love to legitimately deploy a dry ice machine to provide a scenic break, I think I'll need to employ something a bit less obtrusive to everyone else around me!

 

At the old quarry workings is the stump of a girder, the D J Norton photograph shows it a little more complete with one span still standing on a substantial concrete ledge. Railmap shows a plethora of sidings and tramways across the area, so I think what I will probably end up doing is a long out of use tramroad quietly rusting away on a more complete impression of those girders, inclined from rear to front so as to just clear the running lines. I may imagine some partial concrete megalith loading screen as well to further disguise that end of the layout.

[MarcD]

Its looking good. I look forward to see the progress. 

 

Marc

[009 micro modeller]

Have you decided what to use for the rope yet? When I built a small 009 incline a few years ago I used a sort of silky cotton thread - not the black thread sometimes used but lighter and thicker section - which I then stained darker.

[Zunnan]

I'm most likely going to use braided fishing line, it comes in a wide range of sizes from 0.1mm (0.3mm scales as just under an inch diameter), and a decent range of colours. 5050 has provided a fantastic diagram detailing the sizes of elements of the drawgear which makes it possible to make the assumption that the cable used was of an inch and a quarter to an inch and a half in diameter, which is as near as makes no difference is 0.5mm. If I can find a 0.5mm braided line in brown then I think I'll have found just about the perfect medium as at that size it should have a draw strength of over 50lb and some brands state 100lb for 0.5mm...most definitely overkill for what is required!

Edited March 16, 2018 by Zunnan

[Zunnan]

Continuing on with the winding house I've had a stab (literally) at scribing CD case material to represent the framework for the windows, then filed around the edges until the pane is a tight friction fit. It seems to have worked quite well, a dab of ink into the scribed lines perhaps to finish them off. Also on the go slow has been building a foundation for the structure to raise it up closer to track level and a proper lick of paint. I really should at this point sort out the chimney top. I made a rod for my own back there by using a solid styrene rod as a base for the chimney, which to be faithful to the photos of the original should be open topped and therefore will need some considerably awkward drilling out. More likely at this point will be a pot methinks...The snag list is shrinking though, the rectangular windows, upper sills and door furniture being the only major other things left.

 

 

 

In the past when messing around with Lego I've found worm based drives to limit the torque available. I've obtained through my MRC a compact motor and wormless reduction gearbox which should be suitable for cobbling up a winch for working the incline, so testing various setups on that should be possible...I should probably source some suitably sized brass tube to go over the output shaft with a grub screw so I can figure a drum size for winding the rope, and whether the reduction on the motor is enough.

[Zunnan]

I've had a bit of a tinker with the mechanism that I was given by Patrick (fellow Bournville MRC member and co-proprietor of Hobby Rail). Initially it was intended to incorporate this mech into a Gibson Midland 2P kit I have, but it is geared far too slow for that application so has found its way into my spares box.
 

 
Its a nicely compact design of no more than 20mm tall by 10mm wide, if a little noisy under load.
 
To put it to the test I rigged up a test plank at 1:9 for the length I will be using on the layout, including off scene cassette. A little runoff below that in case of a runaway and some hastily mauled 8mm dowel later and I loaded the whole thing up with 6 wagons, a weight that the mechanism will probably never see once mounted to the layout.

 

https://youtu.be/ZZ0U3PUzJl4
 
For this test I used cotton mounted to the lowest wagon by the leading coupling, so trailing below the whole train as it descends and ascends. One thing the test showed up immediately is just how unsuitable tension lock couplers are for this kind of operation, constantly riding up over one another even when I eased the transition at the bottom of the test plank. Another thing this test showed was how unsuitable cotton is, far too elastic and ready to cause snatching when the winch was wound up to higher speeds; basically bouncing the load up or down the incline. Hopefully a proper drum and a concentric deflection wheel along with high tension braided fishing line will eliminate, or at least reduce snatching.
 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Zunnan

[Zunnan]

Incline mechanism test 2...

 

The initial dowel test proved that the motor was up to the task. The limitations in this setup were clear as soon as I started up a load; non concentric drum, non concentric and off centre deflection wheel, snatching when operated at speed. But, it worked well enough to warrant a proper go with decent materials.

 

 

First thing to be looked at was that awful deflection wheel. I've decided for simplicity to not have the winches (there will be two, one for each side of the 3 rail incline) operate via the winding house, instead they will be mounted below the baseboard between the pits and the winding house. The deflection wheels will be best sited directly below the 4 rail end of the pits, so they need to be able to mount underneath the baseboard and remain hidden from view. A pair of N Gauge coach wheels were suitably reversed on their axles and mounted into brass tube, which was itself soldered on to a box section fabrication to hold everything straight and true. The final soldering of the tubes had to be done carefully so as not to melt the plastic muffs which hold the wheels on the axles. A very quick and ugly dab on even with a heat sink was a bit touch and go!

 

 

A 3mm bore 9mm diameter connector formed the basis for the drum, modified with a 1mm deep groove in one end of the 8mm diameter recess and a 1.2mm hole opened into the groove. This modification allows the attachment of the 'rope', the knot sitting in the 1.2mm hole and stopping the 'rope' from slipping on the drum. No adhesives required for changes, easily removed from the motor, machined perfectly concentric and acts almost as a flywheel which should smooth operation.

 

 

I did mention smooth operation...So to keep a reference point I used the very same thread used in the first test while I wait for the fishing line to arrive. With truly concentric and balanced drum and deflection wheel the difference in running was like day and night! Wound up to 12v the raft of wagons barely bounced, snatching had to be induced by reversing direction, otherwise all was well using the thread.

[Middlepeak]

Apologies, I've only just picked up this thread, so I hope it's not too late to offer a few thoughts on the topic of incline operation.

 

Paul is right in his assumption that I used fishing line for the incline on Middlepeak, and based on the success with that, Robin used it again on Sheep Pasture. This is a fine braided steel cable with a plastic coating, and looks just like the cables used on the High Peak. The problem however, which I explained in more detail in my article on the layout in MRJ (issue 110 if I remember correctly), is that the model cable just can't behave in the same way as the real thing because it's simply not heavy enough. Therefore it's bit limited as to its ability to go around tight curves, and it won't follow concave vertical curves such as those at the bottom of an incline. For the High Peak, where you're dealing with a single continuous cable and the basic need is to turn it round a pulley wheel of about 45mm diameter at the top and bottom, that's no problem. However, I suspect you may have difficulty using it on a winding drum as would be required for Clee Hill. Maybe in that situation, using some kind of thread that doesn't stretch is a preferable solution?

 

Both of us also used N gauge wagon wheels for the standard pulleys, and these performed very well over many hundreds of hours at exhibitions.

 

The incline on Middlepeak started out as hand wound, but I was never satisfied with the jerkiness of this type of operation. When the layout was extended to include the incline top, electric operation was introduced, resulting in a much smoother ride. A large Mashima can motor and home made gearbox was installed under the top pulley wheel, and the bottom pulley wheel was fitted on a sliding carriage running on a screw thread, which allowed us the fine adjustment to tension necessary with various temperatures of exhibition halls.

 

You certainly have some different issues to face with a drum operated three rail incline, and I'll be interested to see how things progress. You've certainly made a great start!

 

Regards,

 

Geraint

[Zunnan]

The testing I've carried out so far suggests thread will be fine, but I think I'll test using nylon thread as the those used so far begin to fray after repeated use. My preference remains with using fishing line so I'm waiting on taking delivery of a few samples of 0.4 to 0.5mm braided fishing line, once they arrive I'll be able to check the suitability of using the turned brass motor shaft connectors as a drum, and I do suspect that I'll need to to source a larger drum, in which case the connectors will still be useful for swapping out drums. It may also transpire that using a larger drum will require a slower gear box, the current motor uses a '200RPM' gearbox but the speed response is pretty decent. I can always try a 60RPM equivalent if the 200 doesn't do the job.

[Siberian Snooper]

The testing I've carried out so far suggests thread will be fine, but I think I'll test using nylon thread as the those used so far begin to fray after repeated use. My preference remains with using fishing line so I'm waiting on taking delivery of a few samples of 0.4 to 0.5mm braided fishing line, once they arrive I'll be able to check the suitability of using the turned brass motor shaft connectors as a drum, and I do suspect that I'll need to to source a larger drum, in which case the connectors will still be useful for swapping out drums. It may also transpire that using a larger drum will require a slower gear box, the current motor uses a '200RPM' gearbox but the speed response is pretty decent. I can always try a 60RPM equivalent if the 200 doesn't do the job.

 

Rather than using a larger winding drum, could you not use your existing drum and then wind the cable around a properly dimensioned drum, you would not then need to gear the larger drum down as it would just be a free wheeling wheeling dummy.

[Zunnan]

The issue may lie in the properties of the fishing line I intend on using, the diameter of the current drum is only 8mm, which is more than likely going to be far too small for winding the line. A deflection wheel is one thing, fishing reels are fairly tight in radius here, but the spool itself is a different matter. Coarse fishing reels use a spool of around 40-50mm, sea fishing reels which tend to use braided lines are much larger. More testing is most definitely needed, but there is plenty of room below the pits to fit a mechanism in, I could get a 4 inch drum in there if needs be. Reliability is the main thing I need, which is why I want to avoid using thread as it frays through repeated winding and will rapidly reach a point where replacement is needed. Stronger materials (such as steel braided fishing line) behave differently, too tight a storage drum could potentially leave it with a spiralled twist as it is let out...seen this plenty of times with the cables I work with, nightmarish to work with on some of the larger stuff I use!