Cleaning/Repairing older 00 gauge locomotives

[ngaugenut]

I have recently completed laying the track for my 00 gauge layout and have now started to run some old loco's that have been handed down to me. Some of these, I suspect have not been run for maybe 30/40 years. I have managed to get a couple of them running ok but I am unsure if using an IPA based spray to clean the axles is ok or not. On this particular loco there seems to be an awful lot of dry oily grime and I am reluctant to remove the wheels to clean it off between the wheels and the chassis. I am worried that IPA may remove any adhesive that hold the wheels in place etc. Does anyone know if this ok to use or is there a better safer way of doing this? Many thanks in advance.

[Il Grifone]

IPA should be OK. I use enamel thinners on mine, but remove the motor first if possible. The motor bearings and gears would benefit from cleaning too.

 

Dublo/Wrenn locos are almost indestructible. No glue is used in their construction. The wheels are a force fit on their axles.

 

The bent crank pin needs to be straightened. Pliers should do it, but care should be taken not to bend the axle. It does appear to be bent slightly however. Gentle leverage should correct it. Replacement axles, bushes and crank pins are available on eBay.

[stewartingram]

Use it. The wheels are an interference fit on the axle on the non-insulated side; on the insulated side there is a plastic bush in the centre of the wheel, which is an interference fit as well.

Actually, it is better to remove the wheels, gives you chance to clean out the bearings holes in the chassis, then lubricate them with a spot of electrolube to ensure good electrical conductivity.

Don't be afraid, these chassis are built to last and be serviced. If you can do a pushbike, you are ok with these!

 

Stewart

edit - just realised that it is H/D, not Triang, but similar build standards.

Edited March 14, 2018 by stewartingram

[ngaugenut]

Thank you both for your replies. I feel a lot happier now and will continue with the cleaning and will have a go at removing the wheels. I have already removed the motor and cleaned the bearings and gears. I didnt realise there was a bent crank pin, so well done for spotting that. The power of modern photography and forums.

 

Alan.

[AdamsRadial]

I restored quite a few old Triang and Hornby locos over the past couple of years. I used IPA and meths extensively and had no problems.

 

For really bad cases the technique I used was to dismantle the motor and pickup plates and then put the chassis in an ultrasonic cleaner with warm water and a small amount of washing-up liquid, and it did an excellent job of getting the really hard crud off, after which I cleaned wheels and motors with IPA. I then cleaned up a few of the plastic loco bodies, but found here that the heat or the ultra-sound (still not sure which) dislodged some of the lining and numerals from the body shell.

 

The worst stuff to remove from either the chassis or body is dried hard plasticene. The ultra-sonic bath did work to some extent here to soften it but as mentioned, took the lining off as well.

[ngaugenut]

Now thats an idea thank you. Do you leave the wheels on the chassis when sonic cleaning? I have access to an ultrasonic cleaner at work and may try this.

[Nearholmer]

You might want to try this in ‘vintage/collectable’, where a lot of resurectionists congregate.

 

I use white spirit on electric mechs, and had huge success boiling a really hefitily gunged-up clockwork mech in a pan of water on the stove.

 

IPA: that’s a type of beer brewed especially strong to withstand transport to the subcontinent by sea, yes?

[AdamsRadial]

ngaugenut,

 

Yes, the wheels are left on. I give the part being cleaned four runs, turning it through ninety degrees between each time. The cleaner I use was bought at Aldis a few years back and will take an 0-6-0 chassis (just), it has a plastic basket capable of taking a CD or DVD.

 

After cleaning I blow the remaining water off with air before further cleaning with IPA on the wheels and pickups.

 

I haven't yet had the nerve to try a motor in a cleaning bath, so those get worked over by hand with meths or IPA.

[Il Grifone]

I'd leave the wheels alone, unless absolutely necessary. (If it ain't broke, don't fix it!). It's usually fairly easy to reset the quartering thanks to splined axles, but advisable to not mix up the wheels.

 

Test the wheels spin freely with the motor either removed or the two grub screws in the gear loosened. Only extreme cases will need the axles removing to clean out the 'bearings'. These are prone to wear (old age and zinc alloy is not a particularly good bearing material), but can be reamed out and a proper brass bearing fitted. Dublo/Wrenn axles are 1/8" and Tri-ang 9/64". 

 

Dublo axles went though 3 stages of evolution :-

1. Thin steel pin - these have usually worn out the coupling rods

2. Thick steel pin with larger coupling rods - usually OK

(These two have removable crank pins - just pull)

3. As 2, but riveted over behind the wheel

(The wheels have to come off to replace these - push th epin in as far as it will go and then file off the riveted over portion. It can the be driven out from behind. With care the pin can then be reused.

Wrenn replacement pins are available on eBay. These are aluminium*.... 

* I think - soft anyway.

[kevinlms]

I'd leave the wheels alone, unless absolutely necessary. (If it ain't broke, don't fix it!). It's usually fairly easy to reset the quartering thanks to splined axles, but advisable to not mix up the wheels.

 

Test the wheels spin freely with the motor either removed or the two grub screws in the gear loosened. Only extreme cases will need the axles removing to clean out the 'bearings'. These are prone to wear (old age and zinc alloy is not a particularly good bearing material), but can be reamed out and a proper brass bearing fitted. Dublo/Wrenn axles are 1/8" and Tri-ang 9/64". 

 

Dublo axles went though 3 stages of evolution :-

1. Thin steel pin - these have usually worn out the coupling rods

2. Thick steel pin with larger coupling rods - usually OK

(These two have removable crank pins - just pull)

3. As 2, but riveted over behind the wheel

(The wheels have to come off to replace these - push th epin in as far as it will go and then file off the riveted over portion. It can the be driven out from behind. With care the pin can then be reused.

Wrenn replacement pins are available on eBay. These are aluminium*.... 

* I think - soft anyway.

Yes, I wouldn't remove the wheels, except as an absolute last resort. It ought to be possible to remove any gunk, without doing so.

[ikks]

You might want to try this in ‘vintage/collectable’, where a lot of resurectionists congregate.

 

I use white spirit on electric mechs, and had huge success boiling a really hefitily gunged-up clockwork mech in a pan of water on the stove.

 

IPA: that’s a type of beer brewed especially strong to withstand transport to the subcontinent by sea, yes?

Yesshhhh

[DCB]

The chassis shown looks like a H/D or Wrenn 0-6-0T chassis the "R1"    I would try to leave the wheels alone. The bushed insulated wheels are a bit difficult to refit as the plastic bush slips in the wheel rather than the splines engaging where they were previously, and the non insulated wheels which have the spline indentations tend to work loose after being removed.

Yes, I wouldn't remove the wheels, except as an absolute last resort. It ought to be possible to remove any gunk, without doing so.

This chassis lends itself to having Romford/ Markits 18mm wheels fitted and My S15 has one of these chassis with 22mm wheels.  If you do remove the wheels it is well worth adding thrust washers to the worm wheel to keep it centralised under the worm, a small diameter washer between Worm wheel and chassis improves the slow running quite noticeably and all mine have had this done but it is a fiddle to get the quartering right again with H/D or Wrenn wheels.

Generally I leave the gunge on and just oil the chassis with 3 in 1 or similar oil, gunge is good. Someone asked me how I weathered my Hall class, I didn't, it was just dusty.

[Nearholmer]

I beg to differ.

 

Gunge is not good.

 

Old mineral oil will eventually go beyond gunge, and form solid deposits that are a bngger to remove, but which can physically obstruct a mechanism.

 

If you can clean away the gunge, while it is still gunge, life is far easier.

 

And, I would strongly suggest that there is nothing in a model loco mechanism that needs 3 in 1.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Nearholmer

[hayfield]

If its an H/D R1 then I would either but a replacement NEODYMIUM MAGNET

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-NEW-WREN-Hornby-DUBLO-NEODYMIUM-MAGNETS-FOR-MOTORS-FREE-UK-POST/391733587486?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D43781%26meid%3Df497843885a04541b73551677999860c%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D391587196268%26itm%3D391733587486&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

 

Or some od the small button NEODYMIUM magnets, after cleaning the grunge off the wheels, lightly oil the axles, gears and bearings. and carefuly clean the motors armature, oil the bearings, but keep oll away from the commutator  

[stewartingram]

The chassis shown looks like a H/D or Wrenn 0-6-0T chassis the "R1"    I would try to leave the wheels alone. The bushed insulated wheels are a bit difficult to refit as the plastic bush slips in the wheel rather than the splines engaging where they were previously, and the non insulated wheels which have the spline indentations tend to work loose after being removed.

Yes, I wouldn't remove the wheels, except as an absolute last resort. It ought to be possible to remove any gunk, without doing so.

This chassis lends itself to having Romford/ Markits 18mm wheels fitted and My S15 has one of these chassis with 22mm wheels.  If you do remove the wheels it is well worth adding thrust washers to the worm wheel to keep it centralised under the worm, a small diameter washer between Worm wheel and chassis improves the slow running quite noticeably and all mine have had this done but it is a fiddle to get the quartering right again with H/D or Wrenn wheels.

Generally I leave the gunge on and just oil the chassis with 3 in 1 or similar oil, gunge is good. Someone asked me how I weathered my Hall class, I didn't, it was just dusty.

3-in1 oil? NEVER. This will in time rot plastic as I have found out, many years ago.

 

Stewart

[stewartingram]

If its an H/D R1 then I would either but a replacement NEODYMIUM MAGNET

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-NEW-WREN-Hornby-DUBLO-NEODYMIUM-MAGNETS-FOR-MOTORS-FREE-UK-POST/391733587486?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D43781%26meid%3Df497843885a04541b73551677999860c%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D391587196268%26itm%3D391733587486&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

 

Or some od the small button NEODYMIUM magnets, after cleaning the grunge off the wheels, lightly oil the axles, gears and bearings. and carefuly clean the motors armature, oil the bearings, but keep oll away from the commutator  

 

If it needs a remag I can do it with a professional re-magnetiser. FOC (except postage) to fellow RMWeb members.

 

Stewart

 

[Sir TophamHatt]

What is safe to put in an IPA bath?

 

Seen the cleaner things that someone recommended on Argos for £20 odd (a jewlery cleaner?) but didn't know if it is really worth buying.

[ngaugenut]

Thank you to all for the different information and tips.

 

I have taken the chassis to work and they have cleaned it using an ultrasonic tank. It wasnt an IPA bath but it has come out clean with all the crud removed. Unfortunately I wasnt there to see being done and it has removed some of the outer rim wheel coating. Which is a bit un-sightly but hardly noticeable once on the track. On the positive side, with all the gearing and axles oiled with sewing machine oil and the motor cleaned and re-fitted, the engine now runs quite happily, if a bit noisy. The outcome for me is that IPA is safe to use if you choose to do so. The ultrasonic bath would have been better if I was able to supervise the use of and if I knew what solution they were using. Given a choice I would have used an IPA bath. So all in all I am happy with all the comments on this post and will refer to it on my next engine restoration.

 

To nearholmer and IKKS, I have searched vintage/collectables on this site but cannot find them. If you could direct me I will look it up. Thank you.

 

Alan

[Nearholmer]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/115-collectablevintage/

 

The new menu tree seems to make it harder to find, but it’s still there.

[AdamsRadial]

I don't know if IPA can be used in an ultrasonic bath. The industry method is for trichlorethylene, which is extremely nasty stuff to either inhale or get on the hands. I haven't put IPA or meths into the baths in my cleaner because of the temperature involved.

 

If the wheel flange or tread has suffered surface degradation, I would suggest re-plating it using one of the nickel plating brush kits (actually is is either a sponge or ball of cotton wool) which will allow you to apply a coating without having to immerse the wheel fully.

[Il Grifone]

I don't know if IPA can be used in an ultrasonic bath. The industry method is for trichlorethylene, which is extremely nasty stuff to either inhale or get on the hands. I haven't put IPA or meths into the baths in my cleaner because of the temperature involved.

 

If the wheel flange or tread has suffered surface degradation, I would suggest re-plating it using one of the nickel plating brush kits (actually is is either a sponge or ball of cotton wool) which will allow you to apply a coating without having to immerse the wheel fully.

 

It must have been something nasty to attack the nickel plating on the wheels. This won't affect running beyond possibly giving a bit more grip (Dublo nickel wheels are given to slipping more than the plain alloy ones), but they will need more frequent cleaning, however, as the alloy has a greater affinity for crud.

 

The re-plating kit sounds interesting. Does it work and where can you get it please? Years ago, we had (maybe still lurking somewhere) a kit alleged to re-plate silver with which we had very little success.

 

We have one of those small baths sold for cleaning jewellery (again lurking somewhere). This was quite successful, but I forget the solvent used (probably meths*).

 

* We avoid this nasty stuff with the purple dye and buy it in Italy. 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Il Grifone

[Il Grifone]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/115-collectablevintage/

 

The new menu tree seems to make it harder to find, but it’s still there.

 

 

Normal practice for any 'improvement' in programming (or anything else).  (XP stll rules in my book*, but they made sure you can't use it anymore....)

 

*It's better than anything since for displaying and sorting folders for instance. I tried one of Apple's efforts, but found it even worse. Engineers rate Apple, along with Super Hi-Fi cables etc., as an expensive con...

 

(Perhaps it's just me?)

[Nearholmer]

It’s not just you.

 

I’m not really into domestic software versions, but there was a version about ten years ago that, for file structures, seemed to present things in a neat, intuitive, fashion, followed by one that was near-completely baffling, and now one that is sort of not quite as bad, but still not as good as the good one. And, the on screen presentation has converged between windows and apple, so neither is brilliant.

 

They must surely test this stuff on people before releasing it, so I can only conclude that either my way of conceiving of file storage doesn’t match that of 80% of people, or their testing arrangements are useless.

 

In the past, I’ve had some small involvement with the design of interfaces for highly critical niche-market software, and they were tested very thoroughly indeed, to maximise usability, and minimise the chance of errors ....... I would have thought that a mass market product would get the same, but for different reasons.

[Il Grifone]

From what I gather they release a 'beta' version of the new version and ask for feedback, which they then ignore.

 

(They have certainly not responded to requests for the reintroduction of XP's filing system.)

 

It's probably the old story of the person having to decide that a new idea is rubbish is the same person who was responsible for thinking it up in the first place.

[AdamsRadial]

ebay offer two types of nickel-plating kits, the standard (Gator) large tub with chemicals, and one described as a "brush", which I haven't actually bought, I got the tank kit., and dodged up a lump of cotton wool to make a swab for dabbing onto point blades where I didn't dare risk immersing the whole point in the bath (one old Hornby point I tried had the pop-rivets disintegrate in the bath).

Edited March 19, 2018 by AdamsRadial