Mike G Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 I'm now currently building a Comet K40 kit. As I understand the research I've made; 3 or 4 of these had side corridors for TPO workings, the rest were normal corridor connections? Some made it into BR lined livery with maroon. The top band is easy to see where it went, but, given the recessed hand holds and door handles, where did the larger lining run go? Below? One inch from the lowest window sets as in other BR liveried coaches? I've looked in all my books (Harris & Russell - plus some others) and can't see anything to throw light on this. I really don't want to kop out of building the model by leaving it in unlined maroon, although there is that option. Can anyone throw some light on these questions? Thanks in advance. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 Oh dear, no-one has replied yet. In anticipation of that I had a brief riffle through the Russell Appendix Vol 2 last night and resorted to detective work. Where GW coaches are concerned it is not always wise to jump to conclusions but here are mine. All pics of K40s showed no lining but pics of other vehicles, in both maroon and blood'n'custard, showed lining directly beneath the windows, this denoting the waist. On this flimsy evidence I conclude that the lining on the K40 should also be directly beneath the windows. For what it is worth, I am afraid that the Comet ends may not quite capture the distinctive bulging side profile of the K40 and other 'go anywhere' coaches of the period. This is probably down to the bad editing of Russell's books which among other faults separates the drawings of the ends from the drawings of the sides. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike G Posted March 17, 2018 Author Share Posted March 17, 2018 Chris Thanks for that. The notes on the leaflet from Comet that came with the sides said more or less the same. But I like to cross all the bridges I can. Thank you for taking the time to look. regards Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 Mike, I have been trying to find pics of lined maroon K40s in my modest library, so far without success. An awful lot seem to have retained unlined crimson well after the introduction of maroon. At what date would yours have been running? Just a thought. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Mike, I have been trying to find pics of lined maroon K40s in my modest library, so far without success. An awful lot seem to have retained unlined crimson well after the introduction of maroon. At what date would yours have been running? Just a thought. Chris Were they lined? I vaguely recollect that some NPCS were painted unlined maroon (including some BR MkI BGs IIRC). I seem to remember being told that only vehicles likely to run in daytime passenger trains received lining. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 (edited) This one was. I found the pic last night. It comes from Vol 1 of "BR parcels and passenger rated stock" by David Larkin. The photo is credited to the HMRS and the caption says that it was taken at Totnes. I my be wrong but it looks more like Kensington Olympia to me. Chris Edit apologies for it being vertical Edited March 18, 2018 by chrisf 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 This one was. I found the pic last night. k40-36.jpg It comes from Vol 1 of "BR parcels and passenger rated stock" by David Larkin. The photo is credited to the HMRS and the caption says that it was taken at Totnes. I my be wrong but it looks more like Kensington Olympia to me. Chris Edit apologies for it being vertical Interesting that it carries two painted legends - "WEYMOUTH AND KENSINGTON MILK TRAIN" (which would tend to confirm your suggestion of Kensington Olympia as the location) and "PARCELS TRAIN BRAKE VAN" - which one might have thought were mutually exclusive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 (edited) Many know much more than I do about [G]WR branding policy - I hope! - but it may help us to know that the other two pics on the same page of Larkin's book show different diagrams of BG. Both carry the legend PARCELS TRAIN BRAKE VAN as well as someting more specific. K41 no. 109 is branded SWINDON AND PLYMOUTH, K42 no. 159 has DORRINGTON AND KENSINGTON. Chris Edited March 19, 2018 by chrisf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Here is a shot of K40 1184 as it arrived at Didcot in rather grubby maroon livery. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Interesting that it carries two painted legends - "WEYMOUTH AND KENSINGTON MILK TRAIN" (which would tend to confirm your suggestion of Kensington Olympia as the location) and "PARCELS TRAIN BRAKE VAN" - which one might have thought were mutually exclusive. The branding "PARCELS TRAIN BRAKE VAN" seems to have been standard on GWR (and ex-GWR) full-brakes. This shot of W111W shows it as well. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike G Posted March 20, 2018 Author Share Posted March 20, 2018 I've some colour photos in A book of "Great Western Coaches" by Kevin Robertson. The K40 in there is in TPO colours and also has the offset corridor connection. But there are photos of K41 and 42 (no idea of the difference between the diagrams, presumably someone in the drawing office moved a door handle!). The 2 photos from Karhedron answer a lot of my questions. In other words, lining the coach is going to be a pain in the arse. It's interesting that nearly all the windows have safety bars in them, but most of the windows are open! Chris From the photo at Didcot you can see what you mean about the bulging sides on the coach. The Comet sides could be manipulated to such a shape, but you'd either have to etch new ends or be left with a horrible filler job. And...let's not forget, K40 was bow ended. Thank you gentlemen, very helpful. I'll put a picture up of the finished coach, probably June time. Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 But there are photos of K41 and 42 (no idea of the difference between the diagrams, presumably someone in the drawing office moved a door handle!). The K41 and K42 were almost identical in terms of door/window layout. The difference was the width. The K41s were 9' wide whereas the K42s were only 8'11" wide meaning they complied with LMS & LNER loading gauges. The K42s lasted well into the BR blue era and then into departmental use as their "go-anywhere" profile was a big help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bécasse Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 It's interesting that nearly all the windows have safety bars in them, but most of the windows are open! From the photo at Didcot you can see what you mean about the bulging sides on the coach. The Comet sides could be manipulated to such a shape, but you'd either have to etch new ends or be left with a horrible filler job. And...let's not forget, K40 was bow ended. Safety bars or security bars? The latter are more likely on a parcels vehicle IMHO. It should be fairly simple to widen the existing etched ends by soldering (preferably using a higher temperature melting point solder that has some silver content) 1mm square wire to each side of each end and then filing that to shape, finally filing it flush with outer surface of the end (possibly after making up the basic sides + ends shell). I have used the technique a number of times where an etched component has fallen short of scale prototype dimension and/or shape and it is usually both simple and surprisingly quick to do - and produces a much better result than leaving gaps and subsequently filling them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Here is a K40 I built in N gauge a couple of years ago. Annoyingly, I later found photos showing the lining at cantrail height as well. I may get around to fixing it one day. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike G Posted March 20, 2018 Author Share Posted March 20, 2018 Having taken more time to digest the photo's, I'd have to say that both of these coaches weren't bow ended...maybe my eyes are playing tricks...but if they aren't, is there a record of various K40's being made with plain coach ends? Or is this another case of find the right photo? The Great Western, where standardisation existed only in words! Kahedron - nice coach! Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 111 is a K41 which had flat ends. Referring to Karhedron's post above, K42 had deeper windows than K41 and a different body profile. K41 matched C66/E147, K42 C75/E157. IIRC three K40s had offset gangways at one end to enable them to couple to TPO vans. OK, OK, I'll look it up but I may be some time. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) I've done some looking up. The three BGs dedicated to the Paddington to Penzance Postal were 39, 81 and 1177, all K40s. The need for them to have offset gangways ended in December 1959 when the Postal became the first such train to receive BR MK 1 TPO vans. Or did it? At least one was transferred to the London Midland Region where offset gangways were still a feature of TPO vans. The probability is that different BGs were then assigned to the WR Postal. Now then: can you fit an offset gangway to a bow-ended coach? If not, it is possible that the three BGs identified above were rebuilt with one flat end but I don't know. This is John Lewis territory! If I had known that the question would be coming up I would have asked him a couple of weeks ago when we sat next to one another at a meeting. There is, by the way, a precedent for flat ended vehicles to be given bow ends. Some BR standard GUVs were converted to newspaper vans and if I understand correctly the only way that they could be given Pullman gangways was to be given bow ends. This is 1980s and therefore far too modern for the likes of me. Chris Edited March 20, 2018 by chrisf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 This thread contains some info and also a couple of pictures showing the offset gangway quite well. One poster says they retained their bow ends but I can't be sure myself. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/37586-collett-k40-passenger-brake-van-tpo-conversion/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted March 20, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 20, 2018 It comes from Vol 1 of "BR parcels and passenger rated stock" by David Larkin. The photo is credited to the HMRS and the caption says that it was taken at Totnes. I my be wrong but it looks more like Kensington Olympia to me. Nice shot Chris and it does say Kensington on the coach. I doubt very much it's Totnes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 Congratulations on getting the photo the right way up. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 (edited) Matters arising: 1. That the coach is branded Kensington does not itself mean that the picture was taken there. I am sufficiently familiar with Kenny O to recognise the topography. There are any number of instances of branded coaches turning up nowhere near the places named in the branding. One of my favourites was a brake composite at Bodmin clearly lettered "Return to Princetown". 2. Thanks to Karhedron for remembering the other K40 thread, which I had quite forgotten. The photos of the offset gangway show clearly that it was fitted to a bow end. Chris Edited March 20, 2018 by chrisf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy M Posted March 20, 2018 Share Posted March 20, 2018 The three original K40 TPO conversions (39, 81 & 1177) definitely retained their bow ends. Standard connector at one end, offset squat TPO connector at the other. I have copies of the original conversion drawings. The GWS guys at Didcot have chosen to use a flat end in their modern day conversion, currently underway on 1184. Andy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 81C Posted May 9, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 9, 2018 Afternoon All Has anyone managed put the K40 Comet sides on a Airfix "B" set coach with any success?. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted May 9, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 9, 2018 Afternoon All Has anyone managed put the K40 Comet sides on a Airfix "B" set coach with any success?. Yes, it's the all over brown coach on ANTB Bob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted May 9, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 9, 2018 Yes, it's the all over brown coach on ANTB Bob. Any clues as to where exactly pls? There's currently 1215 pages. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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