Hyperactive N-gauge Dapol 45xx

[foggyjames]

Might this be my first post?! I'm not sure! Long-time lurker. Hi all!

 

I'm aiming to build a fairly basic "train set" style layout in N for my Dad (although hopefully with acceptably realistic scenery - just a space-constrained continuous run track plan compromising realism). All of my experience to date has been in OO, so N is a bit of an adventure for me...and one I've been quite keen to embark on for a number of years!

 

To get me started, and to give me something to play with while I'm working on the track plan, I've bought a small amount of track and a Dapol 45xx. Herein lies my first point of confusion. Powered by a Hornby R921 controller which I had immediately to hand, the loco has poor slow-speed control (i.e. it's hard to move away smoothly, and prone to stalling), and once you're up above around 25% on the dial the thing is moving at a scale speed faster than any 2-6-2 surely ever has. It's as if the controller is working on a 0-24v scale instead of 0-12v. I should add that I've had no such problems with this controller with my OO models. It's also got a pretty growly motor...similar, ironically, to a Dapol-boxed (ex-Airfix) GWR 61xx I have in OO.

 

Now...I did a bit of searching, and found a few references to these not being great runners, and a couple of people saying that the controller makes a big difference...but this seems really extreme. It reminds me of Hornby's hyperactive 0-4-0s! I might just chalk this up to experience, do a bit more research, and swap it for something else. Perversely, having read up on it a bit more, it seems some of Dapol's steamers are not well-loved, whereas I had the perception (mainly from looking at them, I think) that they were superior to the Grafar stuff. That perception is probably very out of date...

 

Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Is this just what they're like, or is there anything I can do to improve matters?

 

cheers

 

James

 

p.s. Bear with if I don't reply - I find some forums I'm new to don't have email notifications enabled by default, or have strange settings otherwise, so I might miss the odd post!

[The Johnster]

Welcome to the madness/calm place of intelligent and informed debate, foggy.

 

I am not an N gauge modeller and not familiar with the Dapol 45xx.  The first question is whether the loco is brand new or second hand?  If it is brand new, take/send it back to the dealer and ask for a replacement; a new loco should run well!  What often happens is that they spend a long time on the shop shelf and the lubrication wax that the factory applies solidifies, making whatever the opposite of lubricant is, stifficant?.   This can be dealt with a spray cleaner (up to now I have used Maplin's switch cleaner) which will often be powerful enough to blow the offending material away; you can then leave the model overnight for the spray to evaporate and apply new lubrication VERY SPARINGLY.  I would not recommend anyone who is not experienced, which you are not in this gauge, to buy secondhand stuff to start with!

 

If it is not brand new, then it's previous history and standard of care cannot be assumed.  Take it to pieces and check that the wheels run square and true on the axles, that the gear meshing is not too tight, and that everything is clean (spray cleaner again)  Keep small screws and similar in a lump of blu tac or similar to prevent them making a break for the border.  Check that the pickups are bearing firmly, but not too firmly, on the back of the wheels, and check the back to back measurement of the wheels.  Remove the motor and push the chassis around a bit, feeling for tight spots; maybe a wheel rubbing, a gear binding (may be more apparent in one direction than the other), or motion catching on something (this will usually be accompanied by a clicking noise).  While you've got the motor out, attach the feed wires to the terminals and see how slow it will run; in a perfect world it should run as slow as that when it is powering the loco (it won't, but it's good to know what you are aiming for).  Put it back together and lube everything that should be lubed but is now cleaned; Dap will email you a service sheet showing the lubrication points, again VERY SPARINGLY.  Model shops sell hypodermic syringes to aid this; keep separate from any others used for any purpose whatsoever in your home for obvious reasons!

 

Check that the keeper plate, which hold the wheels and probably the pickup strips in place, is not overtightened and rubbing on the axles, or too loose and allowing them too much vertical play; this also might be direction sensitive.

 

Run it with a different controller on another layout if you can, to see if that makes a difference.  I have found in 00 that the slow performance of all my locos improved when I replaced an old Gaugemaster with modern hand held digital (not DCC) version; controllers make a difference and a Hornby one, while I am not familiar with it, is unlikely to be the best possible qualtiy.  

 

Check that track is clean; anything that can interrupt a low current supplied to the motor will do, and matters are more critical in this respect in the smaller gauges where pick up surfaces are smaller and locos have less inertia to carry them over dead spots.  Also check that it is level and smoothly laid, especially at the joins, as uneven-ness here will affect running and pickup.  

 

This is pretty generalised advice and opinion, and is all stuff that should apply to N as much as to 00.

 

Good luck, and let us know how you get on with it!

Edited March 18, 2018 by The Johnster

[grahame]

You've already identified the two main issues: the Dapol loco has a poor reputation (and needs careful fettling and looking after) and you should not use a 24v controller with N gauge (replace it with one recommended and suitable).

 

G

[woodenhead]

My two Dapol 45xx were by far the worst performers when I bought them not long after Dapol released them.

 

Almost gave up on them, then they ran in, with lubrication and a lot of running in they become quite sweet runners however the pony wheels iirc don't like radius 1 curves.

[foggyjames]

Thanks for your replies all, and thanks for the welcome!

 

A quick point of clarification, grahame - "It's as if the controller is working on a 0-24v scale instead of 0-12v". The controller is a normal 12v unit - don't worry, I'm not that much of a donut! But the rate of progress which the thing makes is as if it is it's being supplied with far too much juice.

Yes, I'm fast getting the impression that the Dapol stuff is not the best for a beginner (which I'm not, but my Dad is!).

 

Thanks for your thoughts, Johnster! I've done quite a few repairs and setups on my OO stock, so it's broadly familiar territory, but I was wondering how good N should be, relative to OO. Certainly the modern OO stuff will creep at an extremely slow speed, and this definitely won't - it jumps straight from not moving to moving reasonably briskly. The track is brand new, but the loco is second hand. I will give it a strip-down and see if I can improve matters. I appreciate that the Hornby controller isn't premium quality. I do have a Gaugemaster kicking around somewhere, but this was immediately to hand! The Hornby unit normally gives perfectly adequate control, though - it's what I normally use for testing, and will allow the OO stock to creep very slowly. Interesting to know that there is a new generation of DC controllers - I had assumed there was little inbetween my 90s Gaugemaster and a DCC setup.

 

WH - Good to know, thanks. This loco is used, but I don't know how well used, if you get me! It's certainly in excellent cosmetic condition. I'm planning a minimum of either second- or third-radius, so hopefully I'll be OK!

 

cheers

 

James

[Roy L S]

I would suggest you try the Gaugemaster but don't expect too much. The Dapol 45xx looks pretty enough but the mechanicals are rather cheap and nasty especially by comparison to more recent models, even by Dapol (I understand their newer Terrier and 57xx Pannier are in a different class). I fear your dad will become frustrated with the poor running of the 45xx.

 

For the state of the art in tank locos for British N take a look at Farish, especially the more recent ones with a coreless motor (64xx Pannier, Jinty, Fairburn Tank and 4MT Tank). They are silky smooth runners, are also beautifully detailed models and superbly finished.

 

Roy

[Chris M]

The Dapol prairie is well known for having a stupidly high top speed and difficult to produce a slow smooth start. Most, if not all, N gauge locos are far better than the prairie. The big curve is radius 1.

 

Mine is typical I think. It will run ok with careful driving and a reasonably modern gaugemaster controller. You can see it in this video at

3 min 30

5 min 30

6 min 30

I was filming and driving at the same time and better running is achievable with single minded concentration. The Farish 64xx is an example of an N gauge loco which is far more controllable.

 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Chris M

[foggyjames]

Thanks, both!

 

Ok, a picture is emerging! I'll probably buy something else to test alongside it, and sell it on at some point. It'll do the job for now, but I think you're right that my Dad (who by his own admission is not at all a techie and just wants to play trains!) will be frustrated by it, especially as he owned some N-gauge kit probably 40 years ago, and is assuming that things will have moved on - and this will be a bad start! It's a bit of a shame, though, as they live (and I grew up) very close to the Paignton & Dartmouth, where 4555 used to live!

 

The recommendations and video were both very helpful.

 

cheers

 

James

[woodenhead]

It's still better than 40 year old Lima or old Grafar but not as good as Bachmann Farish.

 

Dapol stopped selling all its 2-6-2 tanks and the M7 a couple of years back with a hint of a new DCC chassis in a few years time, the model is exquisite just the chassis was one of their first. Whether that will happen now that Dapol have found 0 gauge I don't know.

 

I haven't tried the later 57xx by Dapol or 64xx by Farish as I've moved back to 00 but the 3MT Tank and the 2MT tender engines by Farish were as smooth as silk when I got them.

[Portpatrick]

Dapol's earlier steam releases were of minimal interest to me - until I picked up an M7 at clearance prices for conversion to a Caley 044.  But a friend who bought the early Prairies said they seemed to be like a kitten.  Full speed or stop.  Slow speed running was uncertain.  And he also found the bogies could be temperamental on points.  He has moved away so I do not know whether he has improved them or ditched them.  My current Dapol locos are ither diesels or an first release Brit (the one with those silly silver wheels and large cross head screws for the coupling rods.  All of these are fine.  forgot the Ivatt tank, a second release with Push Pull fittings.  I had to slacken off the screws holding the keeper plate a quarter turn as it fouled the gearing, but it is now fine, slow fast and not derailing

Edited March 18, 2018 by Portpatrick

[dpgibbons]

The early Dapol tanks (M7, Ivatt 2MT, 45xx) are all wildly overgeared and mine would not run smoothly at low speed under DC.

 

However their performance can be transformed by a good DCC decoder. Slowest sustainable crawl speed for my M7 fitted with a CT decoder has dropped from 8mph on DC to 2mph on DCC, and I have also been able to program a top speed more realistic than its original 240mph!

[grahame]

Thanks for your replies all, and thanks for the welcome!

 

A quick point of clarification, grahame - "It's as if the controller is working on a 0-24v scale instead of 0-12v". The controller is a normal 12v unit - don't worry, I'm not that much of a donut! But the rate of progress which the thing makes is as if it is it's being supplied with far too much juice.

Yes, I'm fast getting the impression that the Dapol stuff is not the best for a beginner

 

Most OO controllers are not recommended for N gauge and despite being nominally 0-12v often put out a lot higher and can damage N gauge motors which are smaller and more fragile than OO ones. The modern coreless ones shouldn't be used with feedback controllers.

 

It's early Dapol models that can be an issue with running performance not all. The latest Dapol class 68 in N is peerless with silky smooth silent performance.

 

G.

[foggyjames]

Thanks for the run down of better-and-worse products - much appreciated. I must admit, I'm quite taken aback at how expensive used N stock is...maybe because the leap in quality is relatively recent, and it's more niche than OO anyway?

 

Yes, I'm sure the 45xx could be tamed with a DCC chip, and that might be a worthwhile longer-term plan, but I want to get him started on OO.

 

Interesting comment about the controllers, Graham. It's not something I'd thought about in detail previously, but I have two conflicting pieces of experience to reflect on. Firstly, I'd made an assumption about compatibility based on Gaugemaster tending to list their main units as suitable for "OO / HO / N" operation. However, I remember from years ago that the Hornby unit I'm using here would make the same OO locos go much faster than the older Hornby 'train set' controller I had. I've never measured it, but I always had a hunch that it was putting out rather more than 12v when cranked up! Having said that, it makes this 45xx move so fast that it'd be off the end of the track I have available for testing faster than I could stop or reverse it. With about 2' of track available I'm having to switch directions every 1-2 seconds with the 'speed' control on about 30% even. Portpatrick's comment about a kitten is very apt!

 

Very much appreciate your assistance, all - this is what it's all about - learning about the various pros and cons!

 

cheers

 

James

[Dr Al]

 Firstly, I'd made an assumption about compatibility based on Gaugemaster tending to list their main units as suitable for "OO / HO / N" operation.

 

Gaugemaster controllers are perfectly suited to N gauge. Dapol shipped Gaugemester controllers with their train sets, and I personally have been using standard Gaugemaster D, 100, 100M and W controllers with N for the last 20 years no problem.

 

Cheers,

Alan

[D9020 Nimbus]

Funnily enough the 14xx, the first loco that Dapol produced, does run OK, but the 45xx and Ivatt are best avoided. A lot of running in improves the 45xx—a little. More recent models like the 57xx are fine.

[foggyjames]

Thanks for the further comments guys - much appreciated

 

cheers

 

James

[DCB]

Get a proper N gauge controller. We accidentally bought an N gauge OnTrack which gives superb low speed running with 00 gauge locos, and nothing else as with around 9 volts max a casual amble is the best they can manage and even that is brief as the overload only allows around 1/2 amp.   

 

The Hornby controller makes low powered  00 locos take off like a scalded cat so its not surprising the little Dapol 45XX misbehaves.

Morley and OnTrack (they use the same technology) deliver a variable voltage and will light an LED without blowing it up on the low speed settings.

[foggyjames]

Thanks for the tip - as a Gaugemaster user, I was unaware before starting this post that there were dedicated N controllers. O, yes, but I'd not heard of N. Good to know!

 

cheers

 

James

[fezza]

I have tried several controllers and spent hours adjusting and oiling. Basically it's a terrible chassis not up to modern requirements. You will never get it to crawl.

 

Come on Dapol we need an updated version of this very popular engine!

[foggyjames]

Thanks for your thoughts - I've got the picture. Shame, as it was one of the models which first made me realise N had come a long way.

 

Do people re-motor (or even re-gear?) N-gauge chassis, or is it all a bit fiddly / expensive / otherwise not done?

 

I suspect it will do for basic testing. I will probably get something else for low-speed testing. Incidentally, Dad has today mentioned his love for the Schools class. Is Dapol's model of those any good?

 

cheers

 

James

[foggyjames]

Sorry - just realised "I've got the picture" sounded a bit ungrateful! I meant "I'm getting a clear picture!". I blame typing while the TV is on...!

 

cheers

 

James

[Kris]

Incidentally, Dad has today mentioned his love for the Schools class. Is Dapol's model of those any good?

 

 

The schools is a lovely looking loco, however on tight curves it has been observed to jam it's valve gear up, sometimes destroying it. 

[foggyjames]

Thanks, Kris! How tight is tight, in this context? I'm aiming to go no tighter than third-radius...possibly second, if I have to.

 

cheers

 

James

[D9020 Nimbus]

As a general point, I'd say that the modern Farish steam locos with coreless motors run really well. The Dapol steam locos with "supercreep" motors run well, but I did have a Dapol B1 which shed its valve gear on one side—the replacement is fine.

[Kris]

Thanks, Kris! How tight is tight, in this context? I'm aiming to go no tighter than third-radius...possibly second, if I have to.

 

cheers

 

James

 

From what I have read, most issues have come on 1st radius track and set track points.