z21 App & programming Peco double-slips

[ianLMS]

Good afternoon and apologies if this question has already been answered but I did a search and couldn't find a definitive answer.

 

Background: I have a z21 start with wi-fi and z21 app running through a Samsung tablet. I have added the layout drawing and programmed all of the points in the appropriate section.

 

I have 3 Peco double slips (A, B & C) on the layout operated via Peco solenoid point motors, via DCC concepts ADS-8FX's with LED indication and separate switches to the panel. Each motor has its own address (2&3, 4&6, 13&14) Attached to the points are Peco micro-switches for the frog switching or in the case of D/Slip C, I have an auto-frog..

 

Can anyone advise on the configuration codes for each double slip so all routes can be selected? The z21 programme shows it as 0-1-1-0 type addressing for each route setting. At the moment, I am unable to select the routes A-D, or C-B on any of the slips. The programme only allows for A-B, C-D or vice-versa. The LED's are out of sync for the routes I wish to select which isnt helping either. I accept if there isn't an easy option and may have to resort to calling the slips two left or right points, and operating them separately via the route setting function, but I would have thought it would be simpler than that and I am just not seeing it (no change there).

 

I am also getting shorts when selecting certain routes so I know I have a frog switching issue to work out as well. The ADS-8SX's and FX's have frog switching capability so may need to utilize that instead of the mechanical type micro-switch.

For instance, for Double Slip A, if I want to cross over to double slip B, it shorts out even with the settings A-B, A-B on both slips. 

 

Thank you in advance for any help with this.

 

Double slip locations are detailed below:

 

 

 

[WIMorrison]

Which version of the app are you using?

 

On the latest version you can select all routes of a double slip

 

(Or I can when I add one to try on the app)

[RFS]

I use RR&Co Traincontroller rather than a Z21, and found the simplest way to represent double-slips was as 2 separate single turnouts.  Then route-setting is very easy and it greatly simplifies the mimic diagram. Should also work with the Z21.

[jpendle]

I have the Z21 and a single slip.

 

The app allows me to setup 3 routes, as you would expect. Each route has its own configuration for the point motors. Looking at the options for a double slip I get 4 route options.

 

You have to set the configuration yourself to get the point motors to do what you want. E.g. the left right route could be any combination of 0101,0110,1001, or 1010. You have to try each setting on each route to see which works based on the wiring of your point motors.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[ianLMS]

Im using the old version so might give the new one a go later this week. Cheers for that. Ian

[WIMorrison]

You should be able to export your existing layout, locos, etc into the new app which has an advantage of being able to create the entire layout within the app and the creation of routes is a doddle - very powerful and when you choose a route it highlights the route you have chosen. Which is very useful.

 

There is also an update of the new app due imminently which Roco have said will bring more features - I have to admit I wasn’t impressed immediately with the new app, but I am now converted totally to it - even if only for the layout building

[ianLMS]

You should be able to export your existing layout, locos, etc into the new app which has an advantage of being able to create the entire layout within the app and the creation of routes is a doddle - very powerful and when you choose a route it highlights the route you have chosen. Which is very useful.

 

There is also an update of the new app due imminently which Roco have said will bring more features - I have to admit I wasn’t impressed immediately with the new app, but I am now converted totally to it - even if only for the layout building

I downloaded it this morning and imported my layout. It looks ok so far - shame about the size of text and poor colour options, but I am sure I can live with it. It looks like I will have to draw my layout rather than import the image in the first post like I did with the old version, but I doubt it will take too long to figure it out! Does the app automatically update or do I need to download it again when its out?

 

Thanks

Ian

[WIMorrison]

The font sizes and colours are one of things that they said they are going to correct in the next release which will come in the same way as any other iPad app update.

 

I have found that the blue scheme works best for me, definitely NOT the in your face orange

[Joseph_Pestell]

I'm not a DCC person but it seems to me that you should be following proper railway practice and that should sort out the problem.

 

For example, lever 3 is redundant. That end of the slip should be working jointly with point 1 and both controlled by lever 1.

 

6 should be worked by 2 and 14 worked by 12.

 

Edit to add: Just taken another look at the plan and you have other pairs of points (crossovers) that should be jointly operated as well: 17/18, 19/21, 20/26, 31/32..

Edited March 20, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell

[ianLMS]

I'm not a DCC person but it seems to me that you should be following proper railway practice and that should sort out the problem.

 

For example, lever 3 is redundant. That end of the slip should be working jointly with point 1 and both controlled by lever 1.

 

6 should be worked by 2 and 14 worked by 12.

 

Edit to add: Just taken another look at the plan and you have other pairs of points (crossovers) that should be jointly operated as well: 17/18, 19/21, 20/26, 31/32..

Thanks Joseph - I was looking at that the other day and thought I could link up a few more crossovers, just not had time to do it yet. This ultimately will reduce the number of ADS-8SX's I will need (upgrading from ADS-8FX), and would eliminate shorts/derailments when I forget to change one point over. 

[NickC]

ianLMS, on 20 Mar 2018 - 08:24, said:

I downloaded it this morning and imported my layout. It looks ok so far - shame about the size of text and poor colour options, but I am sure I can live with it. It looks like I will have to draw my layout rather than import the image in the first post like I did with the old version, but I doubt it will take too long to figure it out! Does the app automatically update or do I need to download it again when its out?

 

Thanks

Ian

 

Top tip when drawing layouts in the new App - Use a stylus. It is far easier to get accurate placement than using your finger which I found almost impossible. I hated the app until I got myself a stylus (£7.99 from Amazon), then drawing layouts became simple.

Edited March 20, 2018 by NickC

[ianLMS]

I have a stylus so will give it ago when I get around to it - very good tip. Thanks for that! 

[WIMorrison]

Here are a couple of screen shots that may interest you, these took about 1 hr to knock up and about another hour to set up all the routes.

 

 

 

I sized the drawing of the layout to fill the iPad screen when used in portrait as I use a Multimaus most of the time for the throttle with the iPad for switching the turnouts and choosing routes - which are so easy to create and so useful

[ianLMS]

Thanks for that - looks much more professional than mine on the earlier version app. Hopefuly I will get chance this weekend to give it a go. I prefer using the multimaus for operating the locos too, so the layout plan can fill the screen on my tablet. 

[ianLMS]

Update: Spent last night drawing out the layout on the new app with a stylus pen. Was tricky and frustrating at first, but I got there in the end. Not as good looking as WIMorrison's plan but I can improve it over time. The new layout app is very user friendly and setting up two of the three double slips proved fairly simple in the end. For D/S 13/14 however, its proving more difficult. Probably just need to spend more time fiddling and trying out different configurations. It was well past 10pm when I got that far and SWMBO's was getting tired (her cue for me to stop playing trains and get my arse ready for bed!) so I had to stop. I will have another go over the wekeend and will report back. Highly recommend the new app however, I am still not happy about the font/colour and will use my multimaus for operation with the tablet for point control. Thank you all for your help. Very much appreciated.

 

Ian

[Waggie]

Hi Ian,

 

What were the setting used for your Double slip i'm trying to figure my first one out but i should have written the configs down from the start, trying to figure which motor corresponds with which row on the app is making my head explode!!

 

Cheers

Ian

[ianLMS]

Hi Ian,

It depends on how your point motor is wired up. I managed to set up 2,3 and 4,6 (bottom left D/S's on my schematic at the start of the thread) no problem, but couldnt fathom out 13,14 (top right D/S). The z21 app kept reversing the D/S. If you notice, the two at the bottom left go the same way as the one on the z21 app. The one at the top right goes in the opposite direction and there is no way to flip the D/S on the z21. I tried so many different configurations, it hurt my head too.

 

The two on the bottom left were easy. Figure out which way the point motors go to determine which way is 1 and which is Zero. Once you have that, manually move the tie bars and using a wagon, work out which points set which route. I wrote it down as I went along and manged to figure it out. 

 

I have attached how I did it, but again, it depends on how you have wired yours up.

 

The large black dots represent the point motor position and on mine, which is "0" and which is "1". The point motor on the left determines the route out on the right, and vice-versa. As I said though, it worked for 2,3 and 4, 6 but not 13,14 (yet)

 

Hope this helps.

Ian

Edited March 26, 2018 by ianLMS

[KSW]

Dear fellow z21 users,

I have had a z21 for some time and have found it excellent for loco control via two android phones.  I have followed your conversations earlier this year with great interest and have according updated the app on my iPad Pro to make use of the facility to create a decent mimic diagram. This is a great improvement on the old app in this respect. I agree completely with comments about the odd presentation of loco dashboard and have retained the old app on the phones. The mimic software took a bit of trial and error to master but it was quite quick to finalise my diagram(s) once I got the hang of it.

 

I have finally commenced laying track and have no problem addressing and configuring single DCC Concepts iP digital stall motors but had found issues with programming double-motor points, i.e. three-way and single/double slips. No matter what I try with configuration they seem to act in unison. You seem to have this mastered so I am asking for a bit of advice on the procedure for setting two separate addresses (assuming that is what you should do) on one point. The combinations of configuration 1s and 0s is obviously more complex in these situations but I'm not particularly concerned with that.

 

If anyone can give me a working procedure for setting up multiple motors I would be very grateful.  

 

In anticipation, KSW

[ianLMS]

Dear fellow z21 users,

I have had a z21 for some time and have found it excellent for loco control via two android phones.  I have followed your conversations earlier this year with great interest and have according updated the app on my iPad Pro to make use of the facility to create a decent mimic diagram. This is a great improvement on the old app in this respect. I agree completely with comments about the odd presentation of loco dashboard and have retained the old app on the phones. The mimic software took a bit of trial and error to master but it was quite quick to finalise my diagram(s) once I got the hang of it.

 

I have finally commenced laying track and have no problem addressing and configuring single DCC Concepts iP digital stall motors but had found issues with programming double-motor points, i.e. three-way and single/double slips. No matter what I try with configuration they seem to act in unison. You seem to have this mastered so I am asking for a bit of advice on the procedure for setting two separate addresses (assuming that is what you should do) on one point. The combinations of configuration 1s and 0s is obviously more complex in these situations but I'm not particularly concerned with that.

 

If anyone can give me a working procedure for setting up multiple motors I would be very grateful.  

 

In anticipation, KSW

Morning KSW.

Have you tried programming the codes as per the drawings I placed above? If not, try that and see how they work. Individual Cobalt point motors should act the same way as the Peco soleniod type going through the ADS-8SX.

[KSW]

Morning KSW.

Have you tried programming the codes as per the drawings I placed above? If not, try that and see how they work. Individual Cobalt point motors should act the same way as the Peco soleniod type going through the ADS-8SX.

Many thanks IanLMS for your swift response. I have tried your codes on my currently-in-place single slips and similarly spent considerable time trying to get a three-way point to cooperate. I have a nasty suspicion that it is the addressing of the motors through z21 that is the problem. I have also posed this question to DCC Concepts and Roco and await their views.   

[WIMorrison]

Are you taking into account the default addressing on the Z21 is not standard and has a shift of +4?

 

This can be corrected i.e. switched off if you use the Z21 Maintenance Programme.

[ianLMS]

Many thanks IanLMS for your swift response. I have tried your codes on my currently-in-place single slips and similarly spent considerable time trying to get a three-way point to cooperate. I have a nasty suspicion that it is the addressing of the motors through z21 that is the problem. I have also posed this question to DCC Concepts and Roco and await their views.   

I had major issues with setting up a 3-way point. In the end, as part of a larger modification of my fiddle yard, I removed the 3-way and put in two single points. I agree with WIMorrison in that it could be the anomoly of the z21/Z21 system and the difference of 4 on the addressing. Once this was disabled, it corrected the anomoly and the addressing worked fine. My guess is that DCC Concepts will ask you the same, as they have an advice page on the issues with Cobalts and the z21 system.

 

Link now attached https://www.dccconcepts.com/manual/an-alert-regarding-roco-z21-accessory-addressing-problems/

Edited September 5, 2018 by ianLMS

[KSW]

Are you taking into account the default addressing on the Z21 is not standard and has a shift of +4?

 

This can be corrected i.e. switched off if you use the Z21 Maintenance Programme.

Hi WIMorrison - thanks also for your response. I currently have 10 iP motors set up for single turnouts with addresses set according to the order they were automatically and sequentially numbered when added to the z21 mimic diagram and these all operate perfectly. I am aware of the '+4' issue and the only time I had to use it was to remove the automatic centring of two old Cobalt motors, when address 202 was used instead of 198. All but one of the current Cobalts in use are new and this 'fix' is no longer required after first use unless you specifically wish to re-centre in the future.   

[ianLMS]

Are the point motors moving when requested, or is it an issue of not moving in the right direction or in the right configuration? the Cobalts can be reversed or the single/double slip turned 180 degrees on the mimic plan. One thing to also note is that the point motor on the left determines the route exiting the point on the right (if that makes sense). I swapped my LEDS over so when the left point moves, it changes the LED's on the outgoing route on the right.

 

One fix is to replace the D/S, S/S or 3-way symbol on the mimic plan with single points overlapping each other. That way you have complete control over the actions of the two point motors on the D/S, S/S or 3-way. 

Edited September 5, 2018 by ianLMS

[Phil S]

I'm a user who has progressed from Multimaus/Rocomotion layout control ( which I used with a 24" touch screen  to control points or more importantly at shows - to select routes !  [ thus ensuring a point was not overlooked in haste]   Note that Route LOCKING takes place by default -preventing individual changes of an included point/accessory until the route is released  [in Rocomotion behaviour]

 

Not having a convenient tablet, or wanting to flatten my phone, I delayed progressing onto using the Z21 until earlier this year and the new App: This giving me 2 contrasting versions to play with !    I had been 'put off' at the 'Roco suggestion' of  using photographs of the layout UNTIL I found a/ the new app does not (yet) allow a background image to be loaded, and then b/ that instead of 'photos' of the layout, I could also import my graphic versions of the layout plan - similar to that created for Rocomotion (in which I also load a supporting background image with guiding scenic details /platform positions and names etc.   Otherwise we have relied on the inbuilt graphic display of the points/accessories in a Multimaus handset.  LOADING AN EXTERNAL IMAGE also makes it easier to create a well-balanced display .... the hard work was done elsewhere - either on paper or drawing software.

 

Regardless of the 'make' of Double Slip - PROVIDED it is a 2motor type ( Rocoline or LGB in my case ... but also all Peco types ) I have ALWAYS found it clearer on the display, and for operation, to draw the double slip as 2 back-to-back Y points (or Left or Right as simplifies the path following flow on the diagram ).  Wherever possible I combine its operation with an adjacent point as part of a crossover, and as the direction reference,  as this then always makes it clear which way the point should be operated if used manually - it never being a problem when the (Rocomotion) route selection is used.  (Even when it forces a 'zig-zag' in a drawn chain of crossovers )

 

So with the old app, I can load the complete track diagram, and then create extra pages with enlarged/cropped sections of the diagram

and laboriously, but successfully, add the points on each page ( A process which I found was totally counter-intuitive on Rocrail as it won't accept the same point address being used on more than 1 page! ).  (I have not yet added ALL my points for the larger layouts)

 

Admittedly I have not yet progressed to using the Z21 route selection as I already have Rocomotion versions for my layouts ... and  the new forthcoming release of Rocoline-with-ballast digital-point-motors WILL NOT be Railcom compatible (according to the downloadable manual)... therefore my Loft layout will remain using MultiCentralePro .... but our transportable Skandi layout will have a test installation with the Digikeijs  Railcom-feedback module fairly soon - requiring the Z21.  [but this weekend we used the Z21 for our Long Linear Modular G Scale layout - with LAN Multimauses  - and I have prepared a suitable graphic which fits well on a 7" HD tablet touch screen

and will then give us ( sat at each end of the  17m layout) - a  'clear view' of all the points, and route setting - in a suitably compact and transportable format.  

In a similar way - but still using Rocomotion - I now have 10" and 12" 12Vdc touch screens with sufficient resolution (HD+) to replace the heavy 24" touch screen (which stopped working after Windows 7>8) - which can be built-in or transported with the layout ...  and 'large flat screen' tvs with LED back lighting are cheap and light enough to offer one for a (passive) repeater [ Audience ] display .... now obviously requiring the track occupation indications, used in the previous version of the layout, to be included. 8-)