Bachmann Class 117

[The Johnster]

Ok, since we're wishlisting, I have a dreadful feeling that all this talk of 116s might eventually lead to the similar cabbed 119 Gloucester Cross Country.  This would be a positive move for WR modellers, but what is really needed is a 120, with very different cabs and enough differences in the body profile and underframe to demand a completely new tooling.  120s were longer lived that 119s and, especially in their later lives, much more widely geographically spread.

 

Criticism of my viewpoint is particularly relevant as I will not be buying any of them; no allocations to Tondu in the 50s. 

[brushman47544]

120s were longer lived that 119s and, especially in their later lives, much more widely geographically spread.

 

Are you sure? The 119s were used in NSE livery on the Reading - Gatwick trains and I thought the last 120s had already been withdrawn by then.

 

But I too would prefer a 120, there's something about their ugliness (especially with the 4 character headcode panel) that appeals.

[locoholic]

Are you sure? The 119s were used in NSE livery on the Reading - Gatwick trains and I thought the last 120s had already been withdrawn by then.

 

But I too would prefer a 120, there's something about their ugliness (especially with the 4 character headcode panel) that appeals.

As Heljan are doing the Class 120 in O gauge, it would make sense for them to use the drawings and research to do an 00 gauge Class 120 too, but not everything makes sense in model railways...

[The Johnster]

It'd also make sense for Dapol to downsize their 0 gauge range to 4mm, but it ain't happening; pity, because I want a diagram N auto trailer.

[BigAndy]

As Heljan are doing the Class 120 in O gauge, it would make sense for them to use the drawings and research to do an 00 gauge Class 120 too, but not everything makes sense in model railways...

 

At the risk of going , I think Heljan have turned their backs on the OO market, especially after the debacle that was the 86......and the 58.....oh and the Western........the 33 came out great, but that was all down to Phil Sutton's hard work.

 

I would prefer to see someone like Charlie and Aaron at Realtrack do the 120, they would make a superb job of it.

 

cheers

 

Andy

[mdvle]

It'd also make sense for Dapol to downsize their 0 gauge range to 4mm, but it ain't happening; pity, because I want a diagram N auto trailer.

 

Maybe things will change with the change in the UK side of Heljan.

[robertcwp]

As Heljan are doing the Class 120 in O gauge, it would make sense for them to use the drawings and research to do an 00 gauge Class 120 too, but not everything makes sense in model railways...

Couldn't agree more. Bachmann could compete by using their new DMU chassis technology for the 117 to do a 119. Maybe Dapol will compete with Bachmann by doing a 116 in 00. I live in hope of a 116, 119 and 120, but at the likely asking prices, the 117 fleet will take care of the funds for a while, that is assuming that Bachmann do a blue one and a green with yellow panels one.

[wombatofludham]

Given the 120 seems to be a perennial favourite in the wishlist polls, and with two manufacturers having or shortly having suitable mechanicals for a long underframe DMU in production, I expect it's more a matter of time before a 120 is announced. People seem to be - albeit reluctantly - "sucking up" the price point for multi-car units so the received "wisdom" of the armchair pundits that the days of units longer than 2 cars in model form are gone due to price rises seems to be off beam.

[The Johnster]

History does not show that 0 gauge models are translated to 00 by their manufacturers; if anything it is the other way around.  4mm tests the market and models then appear later in 7 or 2mm scales.  I am not expecting my 4mm scale Diagram N auto trailer from Dapol or anywhere else any time soon...

 

But, like many of us, I live in hope.

[dibber25]

One of me pet peeves is that Eddie.......107 indeed.........nothing like a 107.........

 

cheers

 

Andy

 

No need to be peeved. The Strathclyde DMU was a Harburn Hobbies/Model Rail limited edition. It went through a lot of discussion and testing of the market before it went ahead and it went ahead because there was clearly a demand for it. There is a segment of the market that will accept compromises to get something which looks OK to them, even if it is not a 100% accurate offering. Personally there's no way I'd want a model in that yellow Telecom livery, whether it was 100% correct or not but I wouldn't mind betting that - given a little time - a 500 limited edition would sell out even if it was a 117 dressed as a 118. (CJL)

[Gwiwer]

I'll not be parting with £300 or so for a "Buzby Bug" as the Telecom yellow thing was sometimes known.  But in more standard liveries there would be a home here for several 117s.

[GordonC]

One of me pet peeves is that Eddie.......107 indeed.........nothing like a 107.........

 

cheers

 

Andy

 

Maybe the memory is hazing over time around details, but I must admit I thought it looked pretty good ... dare I say it better than lots of the models where the manufacturers were actually trying to make something specific rather than an existing model dressed up as something else!! The depth of the bodyside windows look shallower on the 107, was there much else wrong?

[Legend]

No need to be peeved. The Strathclyde DMU was a Harburn Hobbies/Model Rail limited edition. It went through a lot of discussion and testing of the market before it went ahead and it went ahead because there was clearly a demand for it. There is a segment of the market that will accept compromises to get something which looks OK to them, even if it is not a 100% accurate offering. Personally there's no way I'd want a model in that yellow Telecom livery, whether it was 100% correct or not but I wouldn't mind betting that - given a little time - a 500 limited edition would sell out even if it was a 117 dressed as a 118. (CJL)

Yep I’ve got a 107 and congratulate Harburn and Model Rail for having the courage to produce it .

 

Big Andy says it looks nothing like a 107 , being essentially the 108 repainted. It’s close enough for me and I’m certainly not offended by it as it runs round my layout . What’s the alternative? Wait for a real 107? Well you’ll be waiting a long time. Scratch build one , certainly I’d be unlikely to achieve anything close to the finish.

 

Personally I’d have liked more 108s as 107s in Trans Clyde Blue/Grey and Blue .

Edited April 26, 2018 by Legend

[BigAndy]

Yep I’ve got a 107 and congratulate Harburn and Model Rail for having the courage to produce it .

 

Big Andy says it looks nothing like a 107 , being essentially the 108 repainted. It’s close enough for me and I’m certainly not offended by it as it runs round my layout . What’s the alternative? Wait for a real 107? Well you’ll be waiting a long time. Scratch build one , certainly I’d be unlikely to achieve anything close to the finish.

 

Personally I’d have liked more 108s as 107s in Trans Clyde Blue/Grey and Blue .

 

By that then, Bachmann should release the 85 but renumbered as an 81 "coz an 85 looks something like an 81"............... because it's a DMU, doesn't mean that one particular class of unit should be dressed up to look like another, when it blatantly isn't.

 

If some are happy with that, then fill yer boots, personally I want a model to look like what it's supposed to be and there are plenty of modellers out there who would agree. It's a matter of subject research - go and look at photo's or study the real things.

 

cheers

 

Andy

[robertcwp]

107:

107_Haymarket_14-3-76 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

108:

M51424_Rhyl_30-7-72 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

And as this thread is about 117s, here is one:

W51400-59510-51358_Eastleigh_1700-Reading-Soton-Term_9-8-61 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

And a 118 for comparison:

W51322_Reading_for-Newbury_4-62 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[steve1023]

Whats the difference between 107 & 108?

 

Edit: Thanks for the pics Robert. Looks like a door/window position on the brake van then.

Edited April 29, 2018 by steve1023

[EddieK]

Whats the difference between 107 & 108?

 

Although the same underframe length, the key difference is that the 107 has all steel body work, while the 108 has aluminium body work with steel cabs and inner ends. Look closely at the above photos to see different brake van layouts, also the position of the windows differs in height. Not examined the real things as to body profile, but from the photos the 107 looks to be more slab-sided. Others may embellish this....

Edited April 29, 2018 by EddieK

[The Johnster]

I have to say that I cannot see it and need it pointed out to me.  There seems to be a variety of cab roof and marker light  arrangements within the 108, and of course the 107 had a steel body whereas he 108 had an aluminium which may well have contributed to it's longevitiy.

[wombatofludham]

The bodyside on the 108 has continuous, albeit subtle arc throughout whereas the 107 has more of a straight side above a relatively small tumblehome section, as well as the window differences and differences in underframe depth.

 

The differences are subtle but surprisingly noticeable when photos are placed together, but whether that invalidates the passing off of a 108 as a 107 I suppose depends on your attitude towards such things and how desirable the model is to your personal taste.

 

I suspect however the differences between the 117 and 118 with regard to the British Telecom unit are much more minute than the differences between the 107 and 108, and will probably be even more subtle in a 4mm scale model. I suppose it would be down to a retailer to decide whether passing off a 117 as a 118 will be such a crime as to make the model unviable or whether the predictable howls of derision from some would be outweighed by those who will turn a Nelson to the anomaly.

 

Personally I would be in the not buy camp simply because I don't like the livery and it never got into the Midlands!

[dibber25]

When you're on the 'commissioning' end, it's not a question of 'will people notice the difference?' The question is simply, "Can we sell 500 of them?" In the case of the 107/108 it was a joint decision with Harburn. We thought we could, and we did but we never pretended that it was anything other than a compromise. (CJL)

[GordonC]

When you're on the 'commissioning' end, it's not a question of 'will people notice the difference?' The question is simply, "Can we sell 500 of them?" In the case of the 107/108 it was a joint decision with Harburn. We thought we could, and we did but we never pretended that it was anything other than a compromise. (CJL)

 

.... and I'm very pleased you did, having bought 2 of them.

 

I see the compromise with the bodysides now but had honestly never noticed before. Even knowing that detail I wouldn't fancy holding my breath to get a more accurate Class 107 when more common classes like Class 104s, 116/117/118 and 120s are still to be produced then 107s must be unlikely

[Andy Mac]

.... and I'm very pleased you did, having bought 2 of them.

 

I see the compromise with the bodysides now but had honestly never noticed before. Even knowing that detail I wouldn't fancy holding my breath to get a more accurate Class 107 when more common classes like Class 104s, 116/117/118 and 120s are still to be produced then 107s must be unlikely

Likewise, I got two of them and glad I did....

 

There was one on hattons pre-owned yesterday at £190, it’s gone now, so appears to be still in demand and someone prepared to pay a premium price for it....

[Legend]

Yep I’m happy with mine. You can either accept the compromise or not run anything at all. I really doubt anyone is going to produce a 107 anytime soon!

[JDW]

Yeah, I can see how people would not want to see a 108 passed off as a 107, but even as somewhat of a DMU fan I have to sit and study the pictures to see the difference.  Looking for a while and I can see the difference in relationship between the solebar and bodyside, the bottom of the cab windows and the bottom of the saloon windows, the different spacing around the first saloon door, for example, but it's hard and I think most people wouldn't spot the difference if you showed them a model of one in Strathclyde orange and a picture of the real thing.  At least not without prompting.  

[steve1023]

Clearly a lot of people are happy with this compromise. They sold out quickly IIRC and when they turn up on EBay seem to fetch good prices. Happy with mine.