danstercivicman Posted March 27, 2018 Author Share Posted March 27, 2018 Another rough doodle shows that by closing up the pointwork in the approach, you should get platforms around 2m in length - 6/7 coaches.Scan0074.pdf Like this? My only concern is the goods yard now looks abit wonky! 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted March 27, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 27, 2018 Just been working through the deep recesses of my brain to think where Castle St was. A little bit of it is still there at the side of M&S. It used to link High St to Moor St more or less opposite the station. About 40 years ago I used to sprint down it to catch my train home. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted March 27, 2018 Author Share Posted March 27, 2018 Just been working through the deep recesses of my brain to think where Castle St was. A little bit of it is still there at the side of M&S. It used to link High St to Moor St more or less opposite the station. About 40 years ago I used to sprint down it to catch my train home. Yep, of course it has to be Castle Street as my plan is essentially Bastille with a goods yard It may become Hope St 2 as all my signs say Hope St! It's also the most ambitious plan I've looked at! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted March 27, 2018 Author Share Posted March 27, 2018 Chesterfield Market might provide some inspiration - Borchester was very similar... Chesterfield Marketplace.jpg I always advocate looking at the prototype for ideas, after all the big railways had to solve the same problems we do on our little railways. Thanks for the track plan btw I've got a book in the area but that track plan is great. It's just a shame I can't match it in anyrail Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted March 27, 2018 Author Share Posted March 27, 2018 I'm looking at a signal box diagram for Cheltenham St. James from RM in April 1970 and it's certainly an interesting station. An almost identical plan is available here https://signalbox.org/diagrams.php?id=497 and a detailed map here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_03_2017/post-238-0-52314500-1488969663.jpg What I don't know is whether there were carriage sidings elesewhere in Cheltenham or whether the sidings and middle lines at the station were sufficient. The station closed in 1966 so it's in your period Dan. I'm surprised though that having separate arrivals and departures platforms survived so late but arrivals at only two but departures from all four platforms sounds to me more likely than the other way round. What I but don't know was how busy or otherwise the terrminus was under BR and whether all four platforms were then being used. It definitely deserves more investigation as such an arrangement could shorten the throat of the terminus I want to build. Having a departures only bay is something I also played with on Minories and it's fairly simpe to arrange with no extra length. It's a nice track plan that... two central sidings in the terminus! I guess some of the railway builders were quite ambitious Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobM Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Hi an Don't forget this beauty of a plan too, wonderful potential for adaptation into a layout wish I had the room and courage to do it...! Regards always... Bob 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 Hi an Don't forget this beauty of a plan too, wonderful potential for adaptation into a layout wish I had the room and courage to do it...! marylebonestn1945 (1).jpg Regards always... Bob Cheers Bob, That was one of my original upgrade ideas: 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted March 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 28, 2018 Top- line 1 (the bay). Its an Sl-85 just to prevent any stock running onto the UP MAIN I hadn't spotted that. You don't need it if it's a fully signalled bay for passenger trains. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted March 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 28, 2018 At what height are you planning to build the new layout? Could there not be space for bins and the buggy underneath? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted March 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) Like this? My only concern is the goods yard now looks abit wonky! A LH curved point at the entrance to Platform 4 (Line 5) instead of an ordinary LH point should enable you to sort out any wonkiness in the goods yard. But then, in urban situations, goods yards often were a bit wonky just to fit around existing buildings. Remember too that you can flex Peco points a bit - especially the new BH ones. Overall, this seems to have worked out really well. You have got good platform length, a good flow through the station approaches and still a bit of space to play with at each end: low relief buildings behind the viaduct and a bit of a concourse beyond the buffers. Edited March 28, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted March 28, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 28, 2018 Chesterfield Market might provide some inspiration - Borchester was very similar... Chesterfield Marketplace.jpg I always advocate looking at the prototype for ideas, after all the big railways had to solve the same problems we do on our little railways. Took me a moment to note that you had flipped this to a mirror image. As so often, that does not quite work as it means that trailing crossovers become facing crossovers. But in its original form, a very interesting station to model. Dan seems to be aiming to have the station along the garage wall and the cassette fiddleyard in the middle of the garage. I'm not sure that is the best way round. Having the station in the middle would be better both for access and for viewing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Gerbil-Fritters Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 Took me a moment to note that you had flipped this to a mirror image. As so often, that does not quite work as it means that trailing crossovers become facing crossovers. But in its original form, a very interesting station to model. Dan seems to be aiming to have the station along the garage wall and the cassette fiddleyard in the middle of the garage. I'm not sure that is the best way round. Having the station in the middle would be better both for access and for viewing. You're quite right, I was wondering why it didn't 'run' right... I'd forgotten I'd flipped it. Makes much more sense the correct way round... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 At what height are you planning to build the new layout? Could there not be space for bins and the buggy underneath? Hello, Looking at building 1m to 1.5 high. There is an exposed drain at the front where the cold tap for washing cars goes so I'm looking at building a store for the bikes etc at the front. We need a walkway past the layout. Later I'll take some pics to show the area Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 I hadn't spotted that. You don't need it if it's a fully signalled bay for passenger trains. Super yes fully signalled passenger bay Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted March 28, 2018 Author Share Posted March 28, 2018 A LH curved point at the entrance to Platform 4 (Line 5) instead of an ordinary LH point should enable you to sort out any wonkiness in the goods yard. But then, in urban situations, goods yards often were a bit wonky just to fit around existing buildings. Remember too that you can flex Peco points a bit - especially the new BH ones. Overall, this seems to have worked out really well. You have got good platform length, a good flow through the station approaches and still a bit of space to play with at each end: low relief buildings behind the viaduct and a bit of a concourse beyond the buffers. Ta, I'll have another look at the plans later and hopefully I'll be able to improve it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted March 29, 2018 Author Share Posted March 29, 2018 I've had another look at the garage with a measuring tape. Hopefully this will explain the thinking and positioning for the layout within the space I've tried two attempts to re-work it but I can't adjust it without either pushing the curve out of place or messing up the Peco angles 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted March 29, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 29, 2018 (edited) A bit off the wall but what would it look like operationally if the layout was flipped left to right with the goods yard at the top, Arrivals in the middle and Departues at the bottom? Do the curves become too tight? Can't look myself at the moment as I am on Grandad duty but may have a doodle later. Edited March 29, 2018 by TheSignalEngineer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zomboid Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 It works this way round because of left hand running. Swapping arrivals and departures would mean they'd conflict with each other. I suppose the goods could be anywhere without increasing the conflicts, but I think this way round would be preferred because it could just run in without blocking the main, and the conflict on the way out wouldn't delay anything else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted March 30, 2018 Author Share Posted March 30, 2018 It works this way round because of left hand running. Swapping arrivals and departures would mean they'd conflict with each other. I suppose the goods could be anywhere without increasing the conflicts, but I think this way round would be preferred because it could just run in without blocking the main, and the conflict on the way out wouldn't delay anything else. You are Correct- This way left hand running allows arrivals into the passenger and goods sides to leave the up track clear. Shunting can then be done via the up into the mpd and carriage sidings off scene. The downside is the goods reception is smaller than the passenger runs. There's another major reason. Having the layout this way allows the gentlest curves and uses the rear wall for the viaduct. Moving the layout even slightly pushes the curves in tighter. In addition the bay/platform one works at this angle but any attempt to take a point off it skews the angle and the Peco 12 degrees diesntvremsin smooth. I think also the goods years needs to be near the operator, this makes shunting easier. Lastly my thoughts are: Building along the back wall of the garage means the cassette area can be used for woodwork with it being the last part to be completed making it easier to build. I hope that explains some of the thinking Next step- 1) planning the wiring/sections eek! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted March 30, 2018 Author Share Posted March 30, 2018 A bit off the wall but what would it look like operationally if the layout was flipped left to right with the goods yard at the top, Arrivals in the middle and Departues at the bottom? Do the curves become too tight? Can't look myself at the moment as I am on Grandad duty but may have a doodle later. Hello, I have tried it several times in anyrail- unfortunately it doesn't work. The angles for the Peco Points/Turnouts don't allow the flex I need and teh whole thing gets very messy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted March 30, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 30, 2018 I did try the doodle myself, and it is perfectly possible to flip the layout in theory, keeping the Arrivals and Departures from conflicting but the curves didn't work in the available space. Back to your plan, I would also expect to see a slightly wider interval between track 5 and GR or GR and the first siding. What it did get me wondering was are the two kick-back sidings next to the headshunt connected in the most convenient place? It is possibly the most awkward way to actually use them, better may be off GR or a slip off the siding next to it but again Peco geometry makes it difficult. I had the 'adjust' a couple of points to make my layout work. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted March 30, 2018 Author Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) I did try the doodle myself, and it is perfectly possible to flip the layout in theory, keeping the Arrivals and Departures from conflicting but the curves didn't work in the available space. Castle.jpg Back to your plan, I would also expect to see a slightly wider interval between track 5 and GR or GR and the first siding. What it did get me wondering was are the two kick-back sidings next to the headshunt connected in the most convenient place? It is possibly the most awkward way to actually use them, better may be off GR or a slip off the siding next to it but again Peco geometry makes it difficult. I had the 'adjust' a couple of points to make my layout work. Hello, Thanks very much for the sketch Its relatively easy to add some more space to the GR and the siding area... As per new plan I've added at least 10cm The whole thing can be flipped but... putting the goods yard on the far side makes it inaccessible The kickback sidings are not ideal in location- although any attempt to move them reduces the Goods Reception Line and or means running off the headshunt. For now I think its a good basis to work towards although its gonna be slow progress!! I am concerned about how to split it into sections so any thoughts welcome! Edited March 30, 2018 by danstercivicman Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted March 31, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2018 (edited) As Zomboid pointed out, you can't just flip it unless you want to put Birmingham in Germany! That said, I am sure that it would be possible to put the layout that way round and still make it work with arrivals and departures where they should be. Don't worry too much about the restrictions of Peco's geometry. There will be a way to make that work. But, as Clive has been finding with Sheffield Exchange, very accurate positioning of the points is crucial. And now, a truly left-field proposition! With the fiddleyard in the middle of the garage, is there not scope to make it a turntable? Edited March 31, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
danstercivicman Posted March 31, 2018 Author Share Posted March 31, 2018 As Zomboid pointed out, you can't just flip it unless you want to put Birmingham in Germany! That said, I am sure that it would be possible to put the layout that way round and still make it work with arrivals and departures where they should be. Don't worry too much about the restrictions of Peco's geometry. There will be a way to make that work. But, as Clive has been finding with Sheffield Exchange, very accurate positioning of the points is crucial. And now, a truly left-field proposition! With the fiddleyard in the middle of the garage, is there not scope to make it a turntable? Its possible to have a traverser like Algersgate maybe? I think having the goods accessible is useful, ultimately the layout is a substantial amount of time and money away so there is room for development! Yes, I wasn't aware Clive was having issues but I know from previous experience that points can cause bad running, derailments and all sorts of issues even if they are out by 1mm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian D Posted April 2, 2018 Share Posted April 2, 2018 Hi Dan, Glad you started a new thread. My two pennies worth for what it's worth. City centre location - why have a goods yard? Goods depots tended to be elsewhere IMHO. There are some cracking city centre termini models around which don't feature goods facilities. Substitute goods yard for loco facilities (turntable, shed, coaling stage etc) and carriage sidings for empty stock/dmus. Hat, coat, etc. Regards, Brian. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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