Birmingham Castle Street. BR Late Crest What if Terminus. 1965

[TheSignalEngineer]

Hi Dan,

Glad you started a new thread.  My two pennies worth for what it's worth.

City centre location - why have a goods yard?  Goods depots tended to be elsewhere IMHO.  There are some cracking city centre termini models around which don't feature goods facilities. 

Substitute goods yard for loco facilities (turntable, shed, coaling stage etc) and carriage sidings for empty stock/dmus.

Hat, coat, etc.

 

Regards,

Brian.

There were plenty of Town/City Centre goods depots.

 

In Birmingham, Central Goods was next to the West Suburban line into New Street but at a different level. Prior to New Street being built Curzon Street was both Passenger and Goods. Moor Street was adjacent to and underneath the passenger station.

Manchester had LNW and GC at London road, Midland at Ancoats and Central, GN at Deansgate, LNW and GW at Liverpool Road, L&Y at Salford.

In London you don't get much more City Centre than Broad Street or Farringdon.

 

 

If anything it was carriage sidings and loco sheds which tended to be further out. In Victorian times city centres tended to have the biggest concentration of trade and industry, so you needed to get the goods as close as possible to the end user as the 'last mile' was down to horse or man power. Carriage sidings and loco sheds needed a lot of land and didn't generate cash so needed to be in areas of cheap land and a bottomless pit of cheap labour market. Posh business men also didn't want a dirty loco depot next to their office, hence sheds at Old Oak, Camden, Stratford, Bricklayers Arms, etc. Manchester's main sheds were at Longsight, Gorton, Newton Heath, Patricroft, and Trafford Park, Liverpool for example at Bank Hall, Brunswick, Edge Hill, Birmingham at Saltley, Aston, and Monument Lane. Tyseley was built in the early 20th cemtury an what would now be called a 'Green Field' site.

[danstercivicman]

Cheers both

 

I am trending towards the Goods Depot rather than a loco shed.  I tried the Loco shed on Hopeguard (prev layout two layouts ago) it was ok but I struggled to get the turntable fitted and then lost interest as the baseboards were less than level!!! 

 

I am mainly thinking of the Goods yard as I have some lovely banana vans and meat/fish vans.   Also the 8F can bring in some fitted freight which would be perishables for the market!    Kinda like Moor St but not GWR

 

Suggestions both welcome and the layout will start July/August once the missus is back at work from maternity- currently all funds are in staying afloat mode!!! 

[Pacific231G]

Cheers both

 

I am trending towards the Goods Depot rather than a loco shed.  I tried the Loco shed on Hopeguard (prev layout two layouts ago) it was ok but I struggled to get the turntable fitted and then lost interest as the baseboards were less than level!!! 

 

I am mainly thinking of the Goods yard as I have some lovely banana vans and meat/fish vans.   Also the 8F can bring in some fitted freight which would be perishables for the market!    Kinda like Moor St but not GWR

 

Suggestions both welcome and the layout will start July/August once the missus is back at work from maternity- currently all funds are in staying afloat mode!!! 

I  agree with you about loco sheds. They used to be rather de rigeur for model railways but the only reason I can see for having one is that you like them and the modelling opportunities they provide. I was going to include one on my current layout which is a very small French BLT (where termini generally did have a shed for the branch loco to start its day)  but found that using the space for a private siding added far more play value operational variety.

[danstercivicman]

I agree with you about loco sheds. They used to be rather de rigeur for model railways but the only reason I can see for having one is that you like them and the modelling opportunities they provide. I was going to include one on my current layout which is a very small French BLT (where termini generally did have a shed for the branch loco to start its day) but found that using the space for a private siding added far more play value operational variety.

I think Minories intentionally did away with it with just the spur.

 

Thinking of some of the great layouts on rmweb which are my inspiration-

 

1) Deneside- loco shed, turntable and small goods yard. Then the awesome coal mine extension . More rural/coastal?

 

2) Finsbury Square- no loco shed but a fantastic goods yard . Urban London themed

 

3) Wigan wallgate- both- northern themed

 

4) Aldersgate- neither just passenger, urban London themed

 

5) Bradfield Gloucester Sq- passenger/parcels

 

6) Borchester Market- both but again a rural eastern region with coal spur

 

Apols if I've missed anyone's work/misunderstood it!

 

I plan therefore small goods yard for perishables and milk traffic. No loco shed

Edited April 3, 2018 by danstercivicman

[TheSignalEngineer]

Birmingham New St had some sidings on the Midland side accessed from Station Street. These were known as the Fish Sidings and dealt with vans of market traffic.

 

There was a fish train from Sheffield to Birmingham Central which stopped at New Street for traffic purposes from about 0430 to 0500. There was also a train of perishables conveying vans from Templecombe which stopped at about 0125 - 0155 then continued to Burton and Derby.

 

Market traffic was also dealt with in Queens Drive, unloading from platforms 6 and 7 especially at the start of the rebuilding.

[danstercivicman]

Birmingham New St had some sidings on the Midland side accessed from Station Street. These were known as the Fish Sidings and dealt with vans of market traffic.

 

There was a fish train from Sheffield to Birmingham Central which stopped at New Street for traffic purposes from about 0430 to 0500. There was also a train of perishables conveying vans from Templecombe which stopped at about 0125 - 0155 then continued to Burton and Derby.

 

Market traffic was also dealt with in Queens Drive, unloading from platforms 6 and 7 especially at the start of the rebuilding.

It did indeed have some fish sidings tucked away-I've always wondered what the smell would have been like as I think it was quite enclosed?

 

Generally that's the idea I'm going for

[Chris116]

It did indeed have some fish sidings tucked away-I've always wondered what the smell would have been like as I think it was quite enclosed?

 

Generally that's the idea I'm going for

But without the smell I hope!

[danstercivicman]

But without the smell I hope!

 

Yup

 

Although I do love the small of coal burning steam locos.... that'll be the next big thing...dcc clag... tbh I think there's a market there for smell fitted locos. You could clag thrash and two tone away

 

I'm sure the rtr manufacturers could ad an extra £300 to loco prices for clag

Edited April 3, 2018 by danstercivicman

[TheSignalEngineer]

It did indeed have some fish sidings tucked away-I've always wondered what the smell would have been like as I think it was quite enclosed?

 

Generally that's the idea I'm going for

Bottom picture on this page. I remember it well. We never went anywhere near it when we were trainspotting. http://www.photobydjnorton.com/NewStAtWork2.html

[danstercivicman]

Bottom picture on this page. I remember it well. We never went anywhere near it when we were trainspotting. http://www.photobydjnorton.com/NewStAtWork2.html

Nice- beautifully atmospheric   Thanks for sharing- thats the atmosphere I'd love to capture.  Grime on grime on grime

 

It does confirm that the smell of fish was especially strong in the summer.   Now (major manufacturer) can add fish smell to the Insul fish vans and sell them at £50 a wagon

Edited April 3, 2018 by danstercivicman

[Pacific231G]

Nice- beautifully atmospheric   Thanks for sharing- thats the atmosphere I'd love to capture.  Grime on grime on grime

 

It does confirm that the smell of fish was especially strong in the summer.   Now (major manufacturer) can add fish smell to the Insul fish vans and sell them at £50 a wagon

Or you could just put them in a box with a fish that's a bit long time no sea. US crossing bells and DCC air horns on the next door layout at exhibitions could soon be a rather pleasant memory.

[fishytrains]

An interesting design. I'm already looking forward to July/August to see the start of your work.

 

Mike

[danstercivicman]

 

Or you could just put them in a box with a fish that's a bit long time no sea. US crossing bells and DCC air horns on the next door layout at exhibitions could soon be a rather pleasant memory.[/quote)

 

Deffo

[danstercivicman]

An interesting design. I'm already looking forward to July/August to see the start of your work.

 

Mike

Me too, it's gonna start with the baseboards and roof insulation/weatherstrips on the doors/insulating the doors

 

Was subjected to Thomas land today (took my daughter for a treat. It's awful when you have such gems as the SVR and GCR and GWRS nearby- blame the wife for the booking but my daughter loved it. Thankfully she likes proper trains too

[Chris116]

Me too, it's gonna start with the baseboards and roof insulation/weatherstrips on the doors/insulating the doors

Was subjected to Thomas land today (took my daughter for a treat. It's awful when you have such gems as the SVR and GCR and GWRS nearby- blame the wife for the booking but my daughter loved it. Thankfully she likes proper trains too

You should have come to the Mid Hants where you could have had Thomas and real trains all in one day!

[danstercivicman]

You should have come to the Mid Hants where you could have had Thomas and real trains all in one day!

I had no part in the booking . I was trying to explain to my wife what thomas land is like to a 'railway enthusiast' and how it undermines the preservation scene and gives unrealistic ideas of railway operation to children... I lost...

 

Worst part was 2hr plus drive and 2 hr plus drive on the way home (normally 45 mins). Which proves the Beeching cuts were a disaster....

Edited April 6, 2018 by danstercivicman

[Joseph_Pestell]

Bottom picture on this page. I remember it well. We never went anywhere near it when we were trainspotting. http://www.photobydjnorton.com/NewStAtWork2.html

 

What a great set of photos.

[BobM]

I had no part in the booking . I was trying to explain to my wife what thomas land is like to a 'railway enthusiast' and how it undermines the preservation scene and gives unrealistic ideas of railway operation to children... I lost...

 

Worst part was 2hr plus drive and 2 hr plus drive on the way home (normally 45 mins). Which proves the Beeching cuts were a disaster....

 

Hi........

 

Just to temper your fevered brow after Thomas Land.....here's something for you and to ease you back into the 'real world'......it was a beautiful spring Thursday on the SVR yesterday..........managed to enjoy both the weather and some lovely locos during a volunteering stint......at Arley

 

 

 

Regards always...

Bob

Edited April 6, 2018 by BobM

[danstercivicman]

Hi........

 

Just to temper your fevered brow after Thomas Land.....here's something for you and to ease you back into the 'real world'......it was a beautiful spring Thursday on the SVR yesterday..........managed to enjoy both the weather and some lovely locos during a volunteering stint......at Arley

 

102_1328.JPG

 

102_1343.JPG

 

Regards always...

Bob

Faith is restored

 

Yeah personally I found Thomas World hard to take I mean my daughter loved the rides but thomas is clearly a diesel there are inside driving wheels and the motion is all fake!!

 

I mean I know it's for kids but I'd rather spend my money suppprting the preservation scene

[danstercivicman]

Well, 

 

I have been very busy with work a new house and baby 2!

 

the layout remains firmly on the back burner but I am coming to the realisation that the current plan is very large.

 

I have been thinking that something like this might be better:

 

It has better goods facilities than the current minories plan and allows me to keep the minories station buildings with a touch of curvature to make it less bland.

Edited May 27, 2018 by danstercivicman

[Pacific231G]

Well, 

 

I have been very busy with work a new house and baby 2!

 

the layout remains firmly on the back burner but I am coming to the realisation that the current plan is very large.

 

I have been thinking that something like this might be better:

 

It has better goods facilities than the current minories plan and allows me to keep the minories station buildings with a touch of curvature to make it less bland.

It looks good and l do ike the gentle curve through the platforms but what type of points are you planning for the two crossovers in the throat?  With Peco track my own experiments indicated that anything less than large radius gave an excessive throwover with main line coaches which was why, not having the length for the longer points, I kept coming back to CJF's Minories arrangement. The trouible is that it does scream "Minories" but I've not been able to better it on a straight layout. If you've got enough length then the two straight crossovers are more typical.  Is the new plan a four platform terminus or is one the four faces a goods head-shunt? 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Joseph_Pestell]

Well, 

 

I have been very busy with work a new house and baby 2!

 

the layout remains firmly on the back burner but I am coming to the realisation that the current plan is very large.

 

I have been thinking that something like this might be better:

 

It has better goods facilities than the current minories plan and allows me to keep the minories station buildings with a touch of curvature to make it less bland.

 

In general, I like it.

 

But in the real world, it seems to me that where you have one platform wider than the other, it is usually the arrivals side rather than the departure side.

[danstercivicman]

It looks good and l do ike the gentle curve through the platforms but what type of points are you planning for the two crossovers in the throat? With Peco track my own experiments indicated that anything less than large radius gave an excessive throwover with main line coaches which was why, not having the length for the longer points, I kept coming back to CJF's Minories arrangement. The trouible is that it does scream "Minories" but I've not been able to better it on a straight layout. If you've got enough length then the two straight crossovers are more typical. Is the new plan a four platform terminus or is one the four faces a goods head-shunt?

Hello,

 

Peco large points pretty much throughout...

 

The top platform is a bay/parcels platform it's only really used for unloading or departures the three main faces are the lower ones

 

Yes, I'm hoping by using the extra space that it will avoid any issues

[danstercivicman]

In general, I like it.

 

But in the real world, it seems to me that where you have one platform wider than the other, it is usually the arrivals side rather than the departure side.

If I lessen the curve slightly for the two track but it will allow a bigger platform below which I may do

[Andrew P]

Hi Dan, The curvature makes it look so much more believable.

 

Would there be room for a low relief Building and narrow Platform along the top as a Parcels Office, then Railings along the back / top of the main Platform so that the Parcels was a totally separate enterprise? 

Edited May 28, 2018 by Andrew P