Brixton Hill tram depot and its Trams

[thirty2a]

A start made on LT tram depot diorama

Edited June 16, 2020 by thirty2a

[coline33]

A start made on LT tram depot diorama

Good to see a start made by constructing the Kingsway Models' card kit that John Howe and I developed.   Are you actually constructing it as Brixton Hill depot in its overhead only form or as I am doing using it as a 'what if' London depot situated in Rotherhithe New Road and being conduit only?   My 2-rail track work uses Recreation21 street/depot track sections and ordinary railway track in the off-scene fiddle yard.   It has a 'what if' history base resulting in reinstating horse car service 90 as an electric service (Canal Bridge - Surrey Docks station) with a new 1920 depot to replace the cramped Evelyn Street depot and be an overflow to New Cross depot and CRD.   Today service 90 has become a heritage line operated by LT conduit 4 and 8 wheel cars and the depot a museum/perway store.   All the best, Colin Withey.

[coline33]

Now we are into June, please let us have an illustrated update on the progress since March.   What you have started is exactly why I asked John to produce the kit.   I had originally intended to model Brixton Hill depot including the overhead and conduit change-pits at the entrance as a stand alone layout at exhibitions just to house the trams available for working on John Clarke's "West Croydon" layout which alas now rarely makes an appearance.   Thus my "Brixton Hill" has become "Rotherhithe New".   So I would greatly appreciate seeing how your development is going, please?   Kind regards, Colin Withey.    

[thirty2a]

Not done a thing recently due to work and personal commitments but hope to get some more track down soon. Those points are going to be a challenge!

[thirty2a]

Good to see a start made by constructing the Kingsway Models' card kit that John Howe and I developed.   Are you actually constructing it as Brixton Hill depot in its overhead only form or as I am doing using it as a 'what if' London depot situated in Rotherhithe New Road and being conduit only?   My 2-rail track work uses Recreation21 street/depot track sections and ordinary railway track in the off-scene fiddle yard.   It has a 'what if' history base resulting in reinstating horse car service 90 as an electric service (Canal Bridge - Surrey Docks station) with a new 1920 depot to replace the cramped Evelyn Street depot and be an overflow to New Cross depot and CRD.   Today service 90 has become a heritage line operated by LT conduit 4 and 8 wheel cars and the depot a museum/perway store.   All the best, Colin Withey.

Wow! A very interesting project especially as I live in Rotherhithe so will be watching closely.

I intend to build it as was, had to check something as one drawing showed a traversed but it seems there were pits

[coline33]

Yes, I know very well what it is like to make time available for ones self!!! I had constructed the three initial "RNR" boards and laid the track for all but the point at the Canal Bridge end terminal leading into the depot. It was intended to replace the "West Croydon" layout and be shown at the next T&LRS London Festival of Model Tramways in 2019. However, the demolition of the Arnhem Gallery and other issues arising has lead to the announcement of the cessation of these London and Manchester Festivals. One aspect was the rise of the number of model tram layouts at local shows around the UK. This was an objective in the creation of the Festivals. So objective reached and the best affordable London venue demolished equals no further need. I too am now reviewing the style of tram layout. "West Croydon" took at least two of us to transport, erect, operate,take down and store. RNR was designed to be easier and so ideal for the two day or longer exhibition. With now only local shows more often only one day in smaller surroundings, I am looking at a single board, simple circuit but with overhead. RNR was deliberately conduit to overcome the joins in the overhead at board connections!!! So RNR work is currently 'stationary'!

 

Yes, you have hit the overhead wire problem of Brixton Hill. Being only built for trailer cars no electrical provision was made even to bonding the rails. When the LCC decision to abandon trailer operation in favour of more and faster motor cars, there was no further need to use the petrol electric tugs or horses. The new motor cars delivered came with four-way switches and double trolleys which allowed the use of trolleybus style overhead. In time this had its shortcomings so the tracks were bonded so the overhead could be used by single trollied cars. Hence it became a superb scrapyard of all but the conduit-only cars!!! If you want more data on BH plus photos you are very welcome to contact me on <feltham2099@hotmail.co.uk> as I am an archivist for the 1933 to 1952 period with full knowledge of the cars that operated, were stored and scrapped there. BH did have its own resident snowbroom for shunting cars in place for Cohens men.

 

Pits were at the end of each of the six roads but there was no need for traversers as the track fan was constructed beyond the conduit change pits. Marius Road depot in Balham had an outside change-pit at the entry to all covered storage tracks. Being the first LCC electric depot it was a bit experimental and was replaced by Clapham depot. All the best, Colin.

[thirty2a]

Thanks Colin i will be in touch, you really know your stuff on this! Personally i think it's a shame about the tram exhibitions i looked forward to the London one and not had chance to go to the Manchester one sadly.

[Dava]

There is the model weekend at Crich Tramway Village coming up on 18-19 August:

 

https://www.tramway.co.uk/whatson/models-week-end/

Edited July 28, 2018 by Dava

[GoingUnderground]

I only became interested in tramway modelling in recent years, and only managed to go to two of the model tramway festivals, one in Manchester, and last years at Kew. I missed this year's, so I'm sorry to hear that there won't be any more festivals. I must try to get to Crich next month.

[coline33]

If you are a receiver of the T&LRS magazine "Tramfare" then you will see listed the exhibitions around the British Isles that have tramway layouts.  

[GoingUnderground]

If you are a receiver of the T&LRS magazine "Tramfare" then you will see listed the exhibitions around the British Isles that have tramway layouts.

I'm afraid that I don't. The festival was a great opportunity to see several tramway layouts in one location and pick up some bits and pieces from the traders specialising in tramway modelling supplies. Looks like it'll be internet only buying for me from now on.

[wainwright1]

Hi thirty2a and coline33.

just come across your blog, although I note that there have not been any postings for a while.

A very interesting discussion on tramway depots in South London.

You both seem to have local connections with me as I used to live about five minutes walk from Rotherhithe New Road and now live a little further, just off the Old Kent Road.

Colin, I like your idea for the tram depot in Rotherhithe New Road and wonder exactly where that would have possibly been ? There used to be a British Road Services Depot close to North West Kent Junction Signal Box which fitted in the space between the Bricklayers Arms branch and the South London Line viaduct. Not sure what was there before it, a Southern Railway vehicle depot or something else ? The site might have been big enough for a tram depot with an interesting back scene.

thirty2a. I note that you live Rotherhithe and wonder if I have come across you as I am the Secretary of your local model railway club, the Southwark and District MRC. We are now approaching the end of our 33rd year of operation and are always looking for new members or associates in the local area.

I was not aware of the tramway exhibitions held at the Arnhem Gallery, Fairfield Halls, which I think are now coming to the end of a fairly extensive refurbishment.

I think that you are both building layouts which will be suitable for exhibition once they are more progressed. We have not held our own exhibition for quite a few years due a reduced number of members, lack of funds or a suitable local venue, but are regularly involved with the other clubs in the south London area providing layouts, demonstration stands etc, and I am sure that the organisers would be most pleased to invite you to show your models. and we can always help with manning if you require assistance.

Any chance of an update on your two projects ?

 

Incidentally, there used to be a horse tram depot in Leo street, just around the back of where I live now, off the Old Kent Road and another off Queens Road in Station Passage along side Queens Road Station. Surprising, there was still some original horse tramway track including point work for three passing places extant and visible through pot holes at the latter until about twenty years ago. Unfortunately, it was all ripped up when they refurbished the roadway.

 

All the best

R B

[coline33]

Thanks, RB, for alerting me to your post.   In the website refurbishment, this blog unfortunately got lost as I rebuilt my past saved forums.   

 

Firstly, although Fairfield Halls will return in a new guise, there will no longer be any TLRS Festival of Model Tramways that annually used to alternate between London and Manchester.   The reason is that today there are far more local shows that include trams compared with a decade ago plus the age of the organisers has also increased!!!   But probably more off putting is the cost of the venues even if younger people came to the fore.   Both the Croydon and Manchester venues were ideal sites for their location to today's UK tramways.

 

As you mention the Queens Road site exists and LPTB did combine their use of Leo Street and another premise into their Bowles Road 'works' facility.   As to "Rotherhithe New Road" depot the boards are in store with little more than basic track work plus some shops, the tram fleet also safely stowed in a warm place!   Other of my interests have developed requiring attention since last summer together with the other problems that life brings.   Now my location in the New Road was just before Canal Bridge was reached but there was no connection to Old Kent Road.   It was in the V of that road junction just before reaching OKR.   Service 90 was to be the timetable of the museum route to Surrey Quays station where in the days of Surrey Docks station there was a crossover for any short working 68/70.    My depot would have been the direct replacement by the LCC of their Evelyn Street trailer tram depot with conduit tracks provided so it could be an annex both to CRD and New Cross depot.   At present there is little prospect of progress on the boards.

 

Please do not let this lack of my activity put you off.   If you want to take over the title of "Rotherhithe New Road" or plain "Rotherhithe New" in the manner we used to call Streatham depot "Telford Avenue" or just plain "Telford", please do so and keep me informed.   All the best, Colin.

 

 

[thirty2a]

Hi guys, sorry only just got back onto the site. I have not actually done any modelling recently due to illnesses in the family but this hear will see the tram depot get its track fan built ... I am thinking i need to draw it out then attempt some rail bending and soldering.

I live on the new road so am literally found the corner from you !

I would be interested in the local model club maybe pm me details

Tony

Edited February 19, 2019 by thirty2a
Typo

[coline33]

Tony, pleased to find you are still with us!!!   I know what life is like.   The reason why my "Rotherhithe New Road" (RNR) layout has not progressed far enough is being months away from home running my daughter's household whilst she was laid up.   I am now returning to normal after a funeral last week where my daughter's in-laws who born three months apart passed away five days apart.

 

As you are so far advanced with your layout compared with mine, would you like to take over the concept and have a "what-if" scenario for which I can provide the historical basis.   It would be very local to you, avoid having to have overhead wires and working trolleys, able to operate the conduit only cars that operated in London and make a very attractive local layout for yours and the Southwark club.   As an annex to New Cross depot and CRD you would have all the classes/types used in London after 1938 plus those conduit fitted types that came from north London to CRD before WW2.   All the works cars could be accommodated too!   Having started my long term career working in Surrey Commercial Docks in 1957, I have the feel of the area and people who resided in the area in those austere post-war years.   If you ever wanted to go back in time to the LCC era then from 1920 RNR would have covered all the LCC classes and you could tow the Bexley and Erith cars in for store!   In fact you could accommodate all the redundant cars in Brixton Hill from 1933 to 1936 and let the builders rebuild Telford earlier to handle the Felthams.   Honestly, Brixton Hill in reality is very limiting in car classes/types to what you can faithfully achieve with RNR.   My depot building has an exit through the rear wall into an open area for works cars and road vehicles to replace Bowles Road!!!   How about operating a modern day service 90 from  a working museum depot to Surrey Quays station with heritage cars?   To me RNR is more exciting operationally than Brixton Hill.   What's more you do not have to change anything you have already constructed.

 

There's a thought for you, Tony.   Discuss it with RB and I will give you all the background support you need (my cars are all 2-rail and RNR is all conduit apart from one internal storage line equipped with overhead for testing non-conduit cars).   In fact, you could take over and improve on "West Croydon" now that it is off the exhibition circuit (a loss to the Croydon MRS).   Please let me know what more I can do for you, please?   All the best, Colin.

[wainwright1]

Hi Colin and Tony.

 

Pleased to receive your replies.

Been to our friends at the Beckenham and West Wickham Club open day today. Very convivial with a good selection of layouts on display, including some that have not been seen before and well attended.

I have a number of the Kingsway Models kits in store covering a number of local garages and depots. The only other local tram depots I can think of are Walworth, which is now a working bus garage and the old Rye Lane Depot in Peckham, which I think was mainly a stores depot and has been completely obliterated with a Burger King and Lidl Store covering the site.

The V you refer to is I think between St James Road and Rotherhithe New Road ? I should be able to remember what was on that site before it was redeveloped, but for some reason cannot. I can remember the houses on the end of Verney Road coming out on the other side of Rotherhithe New Road and the timber yard, or was it a furniture factory going up to Canal Bridge and the old shops coming back down the other side of the road. (The location of that very nice photo of the Ha' Penny Bumper horse drawn tram).

Currently I am working on two of our club layouts, Crystal Palace High Level and St Mellion, actually one of our chairman's layouts. Both of these have exhibition bookings this year and require a fair amount of work on them. So they will be taking up a fair amount of my time. I also have my own layout Hawkhurst, which does not have any bookings at the moment, but also needs a new board finishing off scenically, renewal of three broken points, plus refurbishment of the overall layout and in particular photo display panels on the side of its fiddle yard boards. So I have plenty of work to do without starting anything new. 

By the way Gary Cross the leading light on our Crystal Palace layout has also started another private layout of Lordship Lane, two stations up the branch. This will feature the tram tracks under the bridge, though only as a static section with a couple of trams.

 

I note the reference to bending tracks and soldering. I think that SMP do or did some point kits for tram points which had quite a tight radius. These were of a copper clad construction involving soldering. I have done work on inset track creating continuous check rail using PECO flexible track, cutting about every 6th sleeper web, then soldering rail to a copper clad sleepers using roller track gauges to keep everything parallel and correctly spaced. I have also used phosphor-bronze rail for this, but I do not think that this would be appropriate for tramway track. The outside areas and gap between the rails is then infilled with filler and can then be carved to represent wooden tarry blocks or cobble stones as required. You might be surprised how easy it can be to bend rails to a tight curve especially if using code 75 rail. There used be a trader who sold drawn grooved tramway rail, Tramalan, but unfortunately that disappeared years ago, I never saw any and I am not sure how fine it was and if the trams would stay on it. Also many years ago, PC Models who did a range of coach kits and the very nice Methix and Pressfix railway transfers, did a range of etched track components. I saw some of these quite some time ago, and they were really only suitable for cosmetic use.

 

At some point in the future I am hoping to produce a military layout, possibly army/navy, somewhere in southern England. I have already put by a collection of buildings, locomotives, rolling stock, military vehicles and fixtures and fittings for this and have three 40in square base boards from an aborted club layout which could be the nucleus for the project. However, lots of other things to finish first.

 

We have very friendly relationship with our neighbouring clubs, Beckenham and West Wickham, Croydon and Erith and I am sure that they would be most pleased to invite your layouts to their exhibitions once they are progressed, perhaps together with a couple of other layouts they could make up a complete tramway section.

 

Our club would be most pleased to discuss, advise and assist you on details for your project, so If you would like to visit us at our clubroom , I will message you with the address and contact details.

 

All the best

RB

 

See attached picture of St Mellion quayside with inset track.

 

[coline33]

Ray, the paved track looks superb.   I now use Simon Dawson's 'Recreation21' track sections both for conduit and overhead as they provide the most realistic setts for the tramway margin or what is called the 'swept path' today.   But, apart from three Felthams in 7mm. all my rail models (2-car DMUs + DEMUs + EMUs, SR + WR auto trains, China Clay, military, and Wisbech & Upwell) and trams (LT and 'four-footers') are 4mm.   The PC Models grooved rail, which you referred to as Tramalan, proved to be ideal for display but not operation!!!   I am just sending my stock of these parts to the TLRS Model Tram Museum in Birmingham for display.   Been called urgently away so will return to this, Colin. 

[coline33]

Back to business!   Rye Lane depot was one of the earliest LCC electric depots in fact it was the first 'works' as the car bodies were assembled there from makers.   CRD at Charlton was not built then.   Although conduit track was laid in, the ploughs were of the long-lead type as this was before overhead was used.   Within the depot the ploughs were lift out within the lower saloon and a lead from overhead wires was connnected from a troller.    Trollers have the wheel/s running on top of the wire whereas trolleys have the wheel underneath the wire.   Trollers remain on the wire by gravity and trolleys are sprung to keep the wheel under the wire.   With the opening of the LCC's largest tram depot at New Cross Gate it took over Rye Lane just as it did with Evelyn Street depot.   Rye Lane then became the permanent way yard until the very end.   Although Deptford Wharf was also a permanent way yard is was primarily built for material storage and deliveries by ship/barge especially sand for which there were driers.   Rye Lane housed the LCC road service vehicles as well until with the rationalisation of premises under LPTB, Bowles Road became available for the maintenance of the much expanded road service fleet.

 

"West Croydon" had attended the Beckenham club's shows when they were held at Langley Park School.   I loved the shows they put on there and went every year.   When my granddaughter was a toddler it was to their show she first went to and to go into the reception seeing me behind the first layout in sight virtually caused her eyes to pop out!   That was the first occasion she associated me with trams now she is older and comes to visit there is "can we go to the park on the tram, grandad?"   I took my grandchildren on a pouring wet day to their show at the church they use.   Never again, the place was like a morgue and a row with a resident over parking at the nearest point in that deluge I could reach the place decided I would never go there again.   So I love watching the club's main layout "Beckwith" when it is elsewhere!!!

 

By the way, I also model in OO9 being a supporter of the L&BR and currently completing "East Quay" based on the construction of a ship berth at the mouth of the River Rother on the Camber side using an extension off the old Rye & Camber to reach a manufacturing factory on the site of the old Rye Tram Station.   Once the ballasting and the sand dunes are completed then exhibiting will be considered probably at a future Croydon MRS show.   Kind regards to all, Colin.

[thirty2a]

Sorry guys just catching up ...

I'm happy to 're look at the options and a might have been is tempting...

I have a few trams that are usable also so could get something running quite quickly (ish) maybe swapping the fan for a traverser !?

I could use some model licence also on the interior.

I will give it some thought.

I'm in Brum tomorrow for the guitar show which is another hobby !

Also see my o gauge hostile wisbech inspired siding layout.

Don't mention 009 ! I picked up some last year but it's staying in its box for now and that's for kato n gauge trams and a drawer of SR emu sets. To much stuff not enough hours

 

[thirty2a]

...by the way West Croydon was a great layout seen it several times 

[coline33]

Tony, on RNR the single entrance track is conduit only and runs through the building to go out at the rear where the traverser will be in the open.   The rear wall therefore looks like the fronts of the original Hammersmith and Balham (Marius Road) depots.   The open yard area is a separate section to that of the depot building to suit the space available at any one time.   The building as a stand alone permits operation of service 90 with the parallel tracks just being storage/display.   The electrics are dead simple!!!

 

Your "O gauge hostile wisbech inspired siding layout" intrigues me - don't say you are running armoured trains on the W&U???   Kind regards, Colin.

[dasatcopthorne]

I'm enjoying watching this thread.

 

Still have all my 00 models.

 

Dave Smith

[Philou]

Hello,

 

I have just found this thread - though I don't model trams, I always had a 'thing' about them - but trolleybuses are the bees knees for me!

 

I was intrigued by a post above that seemed to indicate (though I might have mis-read) that you were having to bend your own track. I wonder if you know of  'Electric Avenue' (American based)? They sell tram rail (the proper profile) suitable for HO, therefore 16.5mm gauge - no need for check rails. The radii seem very tight - as per the prototype.

 

I have no connection with them nor used any of their products - just passing on some information, if it's of any use.

 

Here's the link: http://www.proto87.com/Street_track_for_trolleys_and_trams.html

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

PS: Good luck in your endeavours.

 

[wainwright1]

Aah Hello Dave, or should I say Mr Southern Electric.

I remember seeing your models and layouts long before there were ready to run models available, apart from the Hornby Dublo 2 EPB and the Triang 2 NON.

 

Colin.

I see your reference to Deptford Wharf.

That is very interesting, as when our club was set up more than 30 years ago, we looked at this prototype as a possible layout and collected a number maps and photographs.

We visited the site quite a few times and photographed the remaining details. We also tracked down several people who had worked there. I calculated that in 4mm the bulk of the track plan would probably fit on six base boards, with a 12 foot river frontage and and 8 foot depth tapering back to the incoming tracks. There would have been a separate extension for the Grove Street Tramway down to the Corporation of London Foreign Cattle Market, later Army Stores Depot, later still Convoys Wharf. Interestingly, between the wharf and the cattle market, there was the Royal Victualling Yard, later Royal Victoria Yard, which had an internal metre gauge system and the cattle market had its own 18 inch system and both also had connections to the standard gauge at various times. The street tramway was originally operated with horse power, then petrol loco and finally steam and the access from the main yard was altered on two occasions.

We did not proceed with the project as operationally it had very limited potential due to the fact loco operated trains only worked up to Grove Street, where there were multiple level crossings with very long gates and from then on all the movements were done using cables and hydraulic capstans. The riverside part of the yard also had around 15 wagon tables and a lot of the tracks turned through roughly 90 degrees inside the yard which would have created lots of difficult angled track joints across the baseboard joints.

This was a railway owned wharf originally L.B. & S.C.R., rather than part of the London Docks, but I do not recall ever seeing any reference to London Transport Tramways having a presence there. Perhaps you can enlighten us.

 

I agree with you about the parking situation for the Beckenham and West Wickham show.  We normally get there early, park up and go into their cafe to get a cup of tea and bacon roll before the show opens.

 

I am also dabbling a bit with 009 and hoping to combine this with 00 on a military themed layout, but currently have more than enough to do on Hawkhurst, Crystal Palace High Level and St Mellion to keep me busy for the moment. I am also tinkering with working model buses and trying source suitable components at sensible prices to make this viable. Faller prices are ridiculous.

 

All the best

 

Ray

[wainwright1]

Hi Pilou.

 

Many thanks for that info on the Proto 87 Sig and HO stores Electric Avenue and City Streets range.

 

It looks very interesting and the rail looks like that which Tramalan used to do.

Looking at the etched sections for the switches, it is not easy to see how much deeper the grooves are to keep the wheels on the tracks than those on the old PC etchings.

 

The stone sets look good, but the main problem is that the sets should curve with the tracks as they go around corners and obviously with a fairly flexible system this is not easy. On the St Mellion quayside I cut all the stone sets by hand so that they go with the track shape. I have also cut the sets on the drive way into the coal yard on Crystal Palace in the same way, but this and the subsequent painting with a variety of stone shades is very time consuming.

 

I wonder if anyone will import these items for the British market ?

 

By the way, modelling working trolley buses can be easier than buses, if you can get the twin overhead wiring working properly with twin trolley poles. You use the same steering system and don't need to carry a battery on board and can control the speed more easily with a controller. The late Tony Chlad had a very nice layout called Walford Arches which featured many London trolleybuses and even a B Type bus !

 

All the best

 

Ray

Edited February 25, 2019 by wainwright1
Correcting an error