Stop hand signal

[ffayolle]

Hi all of you,

 

I'm looking for a British stop hand signal like that (ex: French stop hand signal).

 

 

Red flag?

...

 

Thanks for your return

 

Fabrice

[TheSignalEngineer]

Are you talking about hand signals given during shunting etc. 

 

If so see this document  https://www.rssb.co.uk/rgs/rulebooks/GERT8000-SS2%20Iss%205.pdf

 

Section 5.2 starting at the bottom of page 11 shows hadndsignals to be used during shunting. 

 

Basically STOP is both arms raised vertically if on the ground or one arm held out horizontally to the side if riding on a vehicle.

In darkness the signal is a red lamp held out horizontally to the side of the body.

 

A stop signal given by a Handsignalman for other reasons, e.g. signalling disconnections, would be a red flag or handlamp.

Edited March 30, 2018 by TheSignalEngineer

[iands]

Hi all of you,

 

I'm looking for a British stop hand signal like that (ex: French stop hand signal).

 

 

Red flag?

...

 

Thanks for your return

 

Fabrice

Hi Fabrice,

 

The accepted "hand signal" for stopping a moving train in the UK (by platform staff/shunters etc.) is to raise both arms above the head, or alternatively display a red flag (daylight) or red light at night. The red and white chequred stop sign you have shown would typically be used as a "Not To Be Moved" sign on a loco or other rolling stock that was receiving/undergoing "maintenance". Also, to slightly confuse things, in the UK a red and white chequred plate can be fixed to a bridge, viaduct, tunnel etc., to indicate a "Limited Clearance" warning to staff working on the lineside.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards, Ian.

[cb900f]

Beaten to it.

Edited March 30, 2018 by cb900f

[ffayolle]

Thanks for your return

 

I apologize for this confusion. I'm looking for a "portable" stop signal like a red flag.

 

Fabrice

Edited March 30, 2018 by ffayolle

[stadman]

Hi Fabrice,

 

The accepted "hand signal" for stopping a moving train in the UK (by platform staff/shunters etc.) is to raise both arms above the head, or alternatively display a red flag (daylight) or red light at night. The red and white chequred stop sign you have shown would typically be used as a "Not To Be Moved" sign on a loco or other rolling stock that was receiving/undergoing "maintenance". Also, to slightly confuse things, in the UK a red and white chequred plate can be fixed to a bridge, viaduct, tunnel etc., to indicate a "Limited Clearance" warning to staff working on the lineside.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards, Ian.

 

That looks more like a "Limited Clearance" sign. Used on any close structure next to the line. Self explanatory.

[meil]

Thanks for your return

 

I apologize for this confusion. I'm looking for a "portable" stop signal like a red flag.

 

Fabrice

Well that's it - a red flag. How much portable can you have than that.

[Oldddudders]

Thanks for your return

 

I apologize for this confusion. I'm looking for a "portable" stop signal like a red flag.

 

Fabrice

Every member of traincrew in BR days was issued with a handlamp, capable of displaying a white or red aspect. From the mid-60s these were battery-powered, rather than oil. They were also issued to signalboxes and stations, but not usually to individuals working at those places. I only ever used a red aspect once, and the driver was so surprised he asked me “What’s that?” We were “playing trains” due to a bomb-scare which required his train to reverse and take an alternative route.

[ffayolle]

Thank you

 

So, red flag or handlamp

[Trog]

Every member of traincrew in BR days was issued with a handlamp, capable of displaying a white or red aspect. From the mid-60s these were battery-powered, rather than oil. They were also issued to signalboxes and stations, but not usually to individuals working at those places. I only ever used a red aspect once, and the driver was so surprised he asked me “What’s that?” We were “playing trains” due to a bomb-scare which required his train to reverse and take an alternative route.

 

You also needed a green aspect in case you needed to request a movement at caution/slowly.

 

Most Bardic lamps issued to the P-Way at least by the 1980's could show red, yellow, green and white.

[Fat Controller]

That looks more like a "Limited Clearance" sign. Used on any close structure next to the line. Self explanatory.

The French chequered red and white signal or flag, is called a carré, and may be passed at caution; it is described as being 'franchisable' . When a train is obliged to stop, a 'carré violete' is used, which is a purple light or board- these are 'non-franchisable'.

[LBRJ]

You also needed a green aspect in case you needed to request a movement at caution/slowly.

 

Most Bardic lamps issued to the P-Way at least by the 1980's could show red, yellow, green and white.

 

We always used to use the white for shunting.

Only times I have seen a red flag waved in use is when approaching a signal box and they wanted the train to stop so as to have a word.

[Judge Dread]

I cannot lay my hands on my copy of the 1950 Rules and Regulations book which I was issued with in 1959 at the moment but I'm certain there was reference to flags of any colour waved "violently" would be taken as a danger signal. 

[cb900f]

I cannot lay my hands on my copy of the 1950 Rules and Regulations book which I was issued with in 1959 at the moment but I'm certain there was reference to flags of any colour waved "violently" would be taken as a danger signal. 

Or any light waved violently at night.

[The Stationmaster]

You also needed a green aspect in case you needed to request a movement at caution/slowly.

 

Most Bardic lamps issued to the P-Way at least by the 1980's could show red, yellow, green and white.

 

Yes.  The normal issue was that Guards, Shunters, footplate men and station staff got the 3 aspect version (white, red, green) because that was all they needed.  Signalboxes were also originally issued with the 3 aspect version but in some cases, and later on after a Rule change, they got the 4 aspect (white, red, green, yellow) version because yellow was needed for handsignalling at some signals.  Perway staff got the 4 aspect version because they were likely to be used for handsignalling and fogging duties.  As anyone who has ever taken a Bardic apart will know the later versions all came with the 4 colour arrangement internally but it used a different control knob and had an internal stop to prevent it showing yellow.

 

The original short lever type control switch on the 3 aspect version was ideal when shunting as you could flick between the colours very easily while still holding the lamp and keeping it visible to the Driver; you couldn't do that with the 4 aspect switch. 

 

Shunting staff and Guards only ever needed a 3 aspect version as they only needed to show those handsignals.   In my experience not only was green (for slow down) used a lot in yards but it was also common footplate practice on the Western for a Secondman/Drivers Asst, or someone else riding and looking out, to shout across to the Driver 'green light' even during day time when shunting or moving onto a train etc to attach. 

[bécasse]

On the Southern Railway a uniform tie waved violently also meant stop. The uniform issue red ties may have looked very smart but their real purpose was to provide every member of the uniformed staff with an instant "red flag", and they were trained to use them as such.

 

It is likely that the concept originated as a verbal suggestion by a lowly member of staff to Herbert Walker, who was well known for his ability to interact with, and name, staff at all levels.

[Mike Storey]

Maybe I am wrong, but I recall being told never to use a green aspect when handsignalling. If flagging a signal, I was taught only to use a Red or Yellow, as I could not relay any message about the aspect of the next signal. When shunting, which I did many times in emergency and when the regular shunter was not available or off sick, I could not give any signal which told the driver to disobey the next working aspect.

 

I do not recall having a green aspect on my issued Bardic. I have just checked the Bardic I managed to keep from some job later on, and it has no green aspect.

 

The only occasion I had to stop a train in an emergency was when I had not reached a signal in time to start Single Line Working, and needed to flag down the approaching train to pick me up (in darkness). I waved a red for all my life's worth, and he stopped. But I learned a few new words that night.....

 

For the OP - is this for a temporary replacement of a failed signal, or a signal being replaced, or for a temporary danger signal, for example during engineering works? In the UK, the indication will differ.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Mike Storey

[Nearholmer]

Under possession at night, we always used a green lamp to control movements, both because it meant ‘move slowly’, and because it could be picked-out by the driver from among whatever other lamps were bobbing about all over the place.

 

Oddly, though, on more than one occasion, I had drivers getting confused between the meaning of ‘up and down’ vs ‘side to side’ when they were driving from the ‘back’ cab, looking out along a rake of wagons ...... somehow, driving from ‘the wrong end’ seemed to disorient them.

[cb900f]

Green handsignals were used at night in shunting to indicate to the driver that the movement was to be made slowly . Eg side to side when buffering up.

[ffayolle]

The French chequered red and white signal or flag, is called a carré, and may be passed at caution; it is described as being 'franchisable' . When a train is obliged to stop, a 'carré violete' is used, which is a purple light or board- these are 'non-franchisable'.

 

I'm sorry but in France when driver sees closed "Carré violet" or "Carré" signal (same figure like "Limited clearance" in UK), he must stop the train. "Semaphore" signal is a franchisable signal.

 

Fabrice

Edited March 31, 2018 by ffayolle

[stadman]

The green for shunting is relatively new (Probably older than I think) for moving cautiously. Green is also used for guard despatch on LHS (Sleeper trains etc) or where else maybe required under the rules. Red vertically is used for create brake for a test or by clenched fist (Trainspotters note this is NOT to sound horn)

Have taken many Bardics apart as I frequently repaired them, not so often now as their use is getting reduced, have a reasonable amount of spares.

[bécasse]

The green for shunting is relatively new (Probably older than I think) for moving cautiously. Green is also used for guard despatch on LHS (Sleeper trains etc) or where else maybe required under the rules. Red vertically is used for create brake for a test or by clenched fist (Trainspotters note this is NOT to sound horn)

Have taken many Bardics apart as I frequently repaired them, not so often now as their use is getting reduced, have a reasonable amount of spares.

 

The use of a green light during shunting to indicate that a move must be made slowly dates back to at least 1933 as it is in my copy of the 1933 GWR Rule Book (with no exceptions re other companies listed so it was universal), but I suspect that it is very much older than that, dating back to the days when a white light was displayed for clear and a green light for caution.

[Titan]

The green for shunting is relatively new (Probably older than I think) for moving cautiously. 

 

 

The use of a green light during shunting to indicate that a move must be made slowly dates back to at least 1933 as it is in my copy of the 1933 GWR Rule Book (with no exceptions re other companies listed so it was universal), but I suspect that it is very much older than that, dating back to the days when a white light was displayed for clear and a green light for caution.

 

I suspect it goes back to the beginnings of the railway. Originally semaphore signals displayed white for all clear, green for caution, and red for stop.

 

There was even a little reminder poem for those concerned "White is right, red is wrong, green means gently go along."

 

I expect that shunting uses green for caution because it always did, and was not changed when signals went to showing a green light for all clear.

 

The reason of course that signals were changed to green for all clear is that during the 19th century, more and more homes and streets were getting lit, first by gas and then by electricity, and the abundance of white lights around made a very real risk of a driver seeing a false clear, especially if the signal lamp had gone out.

[The Stationmaster]

Maybe I am wrong, but I recall being told never to use a green aspect when handsignalling. If flagging a signal, I was taught only to use a Red or Yellow, as I could not relay any message about the aspect of the next signal. When shunting, which I did many times in emergency and when the regular shunter was not available or off sick, I could not give any signal which told the driver to disobey the next working aspect.

 

I do not recall having a green aspect on my issued Bardic. I have just checked the Bardic I managed to keep from some job later on, and it has no green aspect.

 

The only occasion I had to stop a train in an emergency was when I had not reached a signal in time to start Single Line Working, and needed to flag down the approaching train to pick me up (in darkness). I waved a red for all my life's worth, and he stopped. But I learned a few new words that night.....

 

For the OP - is this for a temporary replacement of a failed signal, or a signal being replaced, or for a temporary danger signal, for example during engineering works? In the UK, the indication will differ.

 

Ah, an indication of youth or working in an area with multiple aspect signals (or both).  Prior to the 1985/86 review of the Rule Book and Regulations a green handsignal held steadily was used to authorise a train to pass a semaphore stop signal or two aspect colour light signal when the signal was at danger. A yellow handsignal was used to authorise a train to pass at danger a multiple aspect colour light signal or a semaphore stop signal with a lower arm distant signal.

 

When the Rules & Regulations Working Party (of which I was a member at the time) were carrying out the 1985 review of the Rule Book it was suggested that a yellow handsignal should be used in all cases when it was necessary to handsignal a movement past a signal at danger, irrespective of the type of signal.  We agreed to make such a change and incorporated it. into our draft which was subsequently approved at Signalling Sub-Committee and ratified at the relevant operations conference thus incorporating it into the reissue of the Rule Book and Signalling Regulations.

 

Green was (is) of course essential when shunting to avoid sudden stops when a Driver was(is) proceeding on a white light handsignal and of course a green handsignal remains in use to this day to indicate 'move slowly' (or slow down) when controlling a shunting movement with handsignals.

The green for shunting is relatively new (Probably older than I think) for moving cautiously. Green is also used for guard despatch on LHS (Sleeper trains etc) or where else maybe required under the rules. Red vertically is used for create brake for a test or by clenched fist (Trainspotters note this is NOT to sound horn)

Have taken many Bardics apart as I frequently repaired them, not so often now as their use is getting reduced, have a reasonable amount of spares.

 

The use of a green light for 'move slowly' in shunting handsignals goes back to at least the 1913 reissue of the RCH standard Rules and the relevant Railway Company Rule Books so certainly older than you might be thinking .

[stadman]

OK so maybe it was re-introduced in the late 80's early 90's as it wasn't in use in my early BR days.

Also green hand signal at level Xings under local control and points secured for wrong direction movements under single line working.

Kev