Light Railway Mixed Train Formations

[The Johnster]

Another issue with formation and position of passenger stock next to the loco is that of steam heating if it is being used.  Very few freight vehicles were steam heated or through piped (banana vans?) and if the loco was to supply the carriage heating the heated carriages have to be marshalled next to it.  All sorts of odd things went on on light railways, but not all of them were supposed to all the time, but in general good practice is too marshall your passenger carrying vehicles next to the loco and tighten the screw couplings to the required length (2 threads visible) (all right, I know there's only 1 thread in the helix but you know what I mean) for passenger comfort and connection of automatic brakes.

[Orion]

An awful amount of faith has been expressed by various people in the idea that the comfort, safety and convenience of passengers was of paramount importance in the operation of minor railways. I can't help but feel very sceptical, to be honest.

[jim.snowdon]

Despite all of this, several searches of the internet for trains on the classic light railways revealed only one example of a train made up with the (single) carriage coupled behind the wagons. The indications are that even on Colonel Stephens' railways the rules about coupling the carriage next to the locomotive were adhered to.

 

Jim

[The Stationmaster]

Despite all of this, several searches of the internet for trains on the classic light railways revealed only one example of a train made up with the (single) carriage coupled behind the wagons. The indications are that even on Colonel Stephens' railways the rules about coupling the carriage next to the locomotive were adhered to.

 

Jim

 

I have only come across two examples in photos of coaches being at the rear of Mixed Trains on British light railways out of, probably hundreds of photos I have ever seen of such lines.

[eastglosmog]

I have only come across two examples in photos of coaches being at the rear of Mixed Trains on British light railways out of, probably hundreds of photos I have ever seen of such lines.

Other than the Bishop's Castle, I've only seen the one - the example of the EKR I mentioned up thread.  There was another of the Lambourn Branch which the caption claimed was of wagons leading the coaches, but as it was in the terminal station with no loco visible, I am not convinced it was going in the direction the caption writer assumed it was going!

[Orion]

There are certainly a few of the Southwold Railway with the coaches at the rear. Presumably, if they had a long train it was better to put the coaches at the rear, or the passengers might have to walk off the platform at Soutthwold to reach them.

[whart57]

Another issue with formation and position of passenger stock next to the loco is that of steam heating if it is being used.  Very few freight vehicles were steam heated or through piped (banana vans?) and if the loco was to supply the carriage heating the heated carriages have to be marshalled next to it.  All sorts of odd things went on on light railways, but not all of them were supposed to all the time, but in general good practice is too marshall your passenger carrying vehicles next to the loco and tighten the screw couplings to the required length (2 threads visible) (all right, I know there's only 1 thread in the helix but you know what I mean) for passenger comfort and connection of automatic brakes.

I think we can discount steam heating. Screw coupling and vacuum brake were probably the reasons for light railways marshalling the coach next to the engine. However at least one photo exists on a Stephens railway of passengers looking out of the windows while engine and carriage were doing a little rope shunting .........

[RateTheFreight]

As a side question, on the lines where typically there may have only been one coach in operation on a typical service, why was it usually a brake coach? Is the answer as simple as it provided additional braking or did such coaches have other useful uses such as being able to store packages, goods etc in the guards compartment?

 

Greg

[The Johnster]

An awful amount of faith has been expressed by various people in the idea that the comfort, safety and convenience of passengers was of paramount importance in the operation of minor railways. I can't help but feel very sceptical, to be honest.

 

Whilst the companies probably didn't care much about the comfort, safety, or convenience of passengers, the Board of Trade did, and imposed rules to ensure this.  Vacuum brakes had to be operational on passenger carrying vehicles and capable of being worked from the locomotive; this in itself precludes unfitted wagons between them and the loco unless specific authority had been given for this.  And, lax as the attitude of some companies might have been, they would not have been allowed to operate for long if BoT rules were flouted.  I understand your skepticism, but think it is unfounded!  

[kevinlms]

As a side question, on the lines where typically there may have only been one coach in operation on a typical service, why was it usually a brake coach? Is the answer as simple as it provided additional braking or did such coaches have other useful uses such as being able to store packages, goods etc in the guards compartment?

 

Greg

A brake coach was required for the guard to be able to apply the vacuum brake, if required & to park the coach, whilst the loco ran around for instance.

Says a lot for the traffic on a light railway, if a single brake ended coach sufficed.

[whart57]

It might be worth mentioning that for those light railways that made it to Nationalisation, BR rules meant mixed trains had to have brake vans irrespective of whether or not the coach had a brake compartment.

[eastglosmog]

There are certainly a few of the Southwold Railway with the coaches at the rear. Presumably, if they had a long train it was better to put the coaches at the rear, or the passengers might have to walk off the platform at Soutthwold to reach them.

I don't think the Southwold had an automatic brake.  Even late photos of the locos and stock do not show a pipe, so wagons between loco and coaches making it not possible to apply the brake automatically would not make any difference.  What the BoT thought about this, I don't know.  Maybe they had a special dispensation.  It was only in the 1920s that the BoT finally forced the Bishop's Castle to fit vacuum brakes, they having used Clarke and Webb's chain brake before.

[John M]

The North Wales Narrow Gauge had a number of run-ins with the Board of Trade as a result of incidents where the passenger stock was marshaled at the rear of a mixed train, usually break-aways as a result of coupling failure or wagon de-railments.

 

The Irish Broad & Narrow gauge railways seem to have been fairly law abiding and usually marshaled the coaches immediately behind the locomotive although the majority of narrow gauge good stock already had automatic vacuum brake. Photos indicate that County Donegal passengers stayed on the train/railcar during shunting

 

A typical broad gauge consist would include 1 & 3rd class accomodation and a passenger brake van, usually up to 3 6 wheelers or in later years a bogie composite and a 6w full brake.

 

The railways in North American and New Zealand used the automatic air brake on all stock passengers were usually carried in a coach/caboose/van marshaled at the rear of the train. This avoid passengers having to get off or do a tour of the yard during switching/shunting, coach/van heating was usually by solid fuel stove so no issues with steam heating

[PenrithBeacon]

IIRC brake vans in NZ were marshalled next to the engine in the winter in order to take advantage of the steam heating. The changeover took place on Labor Day in October and May Day the following year

[brack]

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:North_Sunderland_Railway_mixed_train_from_Seahouses_at_Chathill,_1939_(geograph_5212622).jpg

 

Just because there were rules didn't mean anyone necessarily followed them...

[whart57]

That's an interesting one. When the line was opened in 1898 the BOT insisted on continuous brakes on coaches, however the diesel loco in the picture had no braking equipment beyond its own brakes so couldn't provide a continuous brake. At the time the photo was taken that had been the situation for seven years.

[PatB]

I was under the impression that The Lady Armstrong did have a brake pump or exhausted (can't remember which). However an earlier Armstrong Whitworth diesel that was trialled did not.

[brack]

I was under the impression that The Lady Armstrong did have a brake pump or exhausted (can't remember which). However an earlier Armstrong Whitworth diesel that was trialled did not.

I think that's correct, but the brake equipment was knackered on most of the coaches for ages, they fixed them all, but a few years after they still weren't using the brakes. Suggests to me that the staff operating just didn't bother.

[Wickham Green]

I think that's correct, but the brake equipment was knackered on most of the coaches for ages, they fixed them all, but a few years after they still weren't using the brakes. Suggests to me that the staff operating just didn't bother.

...... maybe the van was put in as a 'fitted head' then !!?!

[fezza]

There is a photo of the Selsey line with the loco propelling a wagon in front and hauling a coach behind. It may have been a one-off but that's one way to deal with facing connections to goods sidings when no loop is available!

[whart57]

I observed that sort of thing in 1986 on the NS between Vinkeveen and Mijdrecht where a diesel shunter of the 200 class propelled three wagons while also hauling a van and a tank wagon. I didn't photograph it because I wasn't expecting it to leave with that formation!

[Nearholmer]

There were numerous places on ‘not-light’ railways in Britain where this was a permitted practice, within very clearly defined limits. To my recollection it only applied to goods trains propelling vehicles, I d have to scour through sectional appendices to find out if there were any instances where it was permitted with mixed or passenger trains.

[hartleymartin]

T&F went a bit too far with that particular concept with the "middle engine." 

[whart57]

Passenger coaches being propelled is standard practice across much of the world. Of course the front end has a driver's cab but the oomph is coming from a large electric locomotive four or eight coaches back.

[hartleymartin]

There was a light railway somewhere that did not have a run-around loop at the end of the line so the carriages were propelled for a bit. I seem to recall it was some sort of munitions line.