Hornby O Gauge Set

[sem34090]

Hello,

 

In the family we have acquired, a couple of years ago, a Hornby Clockwork O gauge set. I assume it dates from the 1950s based on the box artwork - depicting 'Britannia' - but the wagons are clearly pre-nationalisation ('LNE'). The set arrived with another two identical wagons, in slightly better condition, and a green tender of the same design and with the same number (also in better condition, but missing a wheelset). There was also a large box containing two LH and two RH points and countless numbers of straights, curves and joiners. There are also a couple of bits of what I assume to be Mettoy track. 

 

I'm afraid I know little about Hornby O Scale, or Coarse scale O in general, but I am interested in perhaps doing some in the future.

As well as the rough age, or a specific one if possible, I would be interested in a vague value for the set itself, and perhaps the turntable.

 

I have, of course, attached images. I can't locate the better-condition wagons and the spare tender at the moment.

 

[brianusa]

As you mention, its as the box describes.  Not a lot of value unfortunately, check with E Bay and you'll see many variations in price.  The turntable likewise.  The coarse scale forum would be the place to to go for Hornby O gauge.

 

Brian.

[Nearholmer]

I’m no expert on Hornby, especially the M series, and until I can wade into the giant book on the subject can only go on memory, but I think the wagons might not match the box. They look older to me, pre-war, because they have ‘open’ W-irons, but don’t take that as definitive, because one thing I do know for sure is that Hornby used stuff up after the war, before getting onto a full new-production footing.

 

[ even the big fat book isn’t totally clear on this, but I think the wagons are pre-war or immediately post-war, up to 1949, while the box is I think from c1954 onwards ...... it can’t be from before 1951, when Britannia was introduced. Postwar, the M1 goods set was catalogued from 1947-57, and always contained an M tender engine and two wagons, but the details changed progressively.]

 

The sale price for these sorts of sets tends to be in the tens of pounds, unless they are pristine, and have all the tags and paperwork present, or contain some mega-rarity (I’m not qualified to know whether yours does or doesn’t). And, don’t be seduced by some ebay ‘buy it now’ prices; one regular ebay dealer in particular is infamous for advertising at prices that nobody in their right mind would pay.

 

Of course, what you might have is the last of the old sets, in the first of the new boxes ..... which might be ‘collectable’, if you can find an M series fiend.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Nearholmer

[sem34090]

Thanks Brian and Kevin!

 

The person who gave it to us described it as being in the box it came in, in 1945. Now, I immediately smelt a rat as the box can, as Kevin says, be no earlier than 1951! However, the fact that none of the stock was in BR livery proved to be confusing, so I assumed the set was not in its original box.

 

However, this may spur me into Coarse-Scale O! Probably Clockwork, as I find the method of operating so much more different and entertaining than my usual stuff that electric may appeal somewhat less as it is back to the whole controller thing. Personally, I'm more interested in the earlier stuff, and eventually I may start fishing around for some pre-grouping stock.

[Annie]

All very nice.  That box lid and the box tray certainly would not have left the factory at the same time as the red engine and its wagons.  The wee red loco is an M0 and not an M1 and if it was purchased in 1945 it would definitely be made from pre-war stocks the factory had to hand.  From memory the box tray should be made from yellow cardboard if it was the wee red engine's box, but again I'm no great expert on Hornby boxes and packaging as that's a whole area of collecting all by itself.

And the track in the box wouldn't have come with a M0 engine either as M0 track is of much lighter construction.

 

All in all a good haul though and you should have some fun with that.  

[sem34090]

Looking up 'Hornby M1 Goods Set' on google seems to bring back many showing the green version of the loco with the LNER wagons, and a few of the red loco with LMS wagons. Given I have a green tender, it is more than likely the LNER wagons may have come with that loco, though I always thought the other two (in the same, much better, condition as the green tender) had come with it.

 

I did find this though, which appears to match my set almost exactly:

https://picclick.co.uk/Hornby-M1-Tinplate-Clockwork-Goods-Train-Set-O-232665517712.html

 

Still, the large quantity of track should help with the establishing of a layout. I may add to the stocklist in due course.

[Annie]

Does your loco have a steel cover on the bottom of the clockwork mech Sem?  That's the quickest way to tell an M1 from an M0.  The M1 has the cover while the M0 is free to eat as much carpet fluff as it wants.  The M1 mech is actually quite good, though at this age much will depend on how the spring might be after all these years.  I've had a lot of fun with M1 locos and they look good hauling Mettoy bogie coaches which I think are nicer than Hornby's strange M1 4 wheelers.

[sem34090]

I therefore assume it's an M1:

 

It well light engine and very well on a hard floor (without track) but seems incredibly reluctant to pull even its tender on track. I have yet to try it track-less with the tender.

[sem34090]

Does anyone have any suggestions as to how/where is the best place to try and get stock for a low price? I am wary of ebay for this, but rather fancy a tank engine and 4-4-0 at some stage, plus a brake and some passenger stock once I have some track laid (If I can persuade its current custodian that it's not worth all that much and that I would very much like it!) properly.

[Annie]

Yes some right old tat gets offered on ebay by the ever hopeful.  Here it's the same on our local auction site with folk finding appallingly rusty things with missing bits in some damp old shed and asking insane prices for them.  On the other hand though sometimes nice things turn up for very sensible prices.  Recently I got a pre-war Hornby turntable similar to your one for just $NZ15.00.  I think it's just a case of being watchful and patient with finding old train stuff.

 

Edit:  I don't know how keen you might be on restoring old tinplate trains, but I have a Hornby 4-4-0 from the 1920's that was found in a barn and I'd bee perfectly willing to swap it with you for an 'O' gauge 3D printed bodyshell.

Edited March 30, 2018 by Annie

[sem34090]

It's not even the 'tat' in particular, it's the ridiculous prices of most things because people think 'Old = £££' (or 'Old = $NZ$NZ$NZ in your case!) 

 

Do you have any pictures of the Hornby 4-4-0? I may be interested and I'm sure a 3D print can be arranged... I'm just worried about the postage cost from you to me! I've never had anything sent to me from abroad as of yet - what is required by me or can you just send it? I wouldn't be sending a 3D print, you'd be buying it directly from the printers I'm afraid.

 

So, would you be wanting a G6? That one needs some serious work to modify it to a functional state. How about a T3? Or a Fox Walker 0-6-0ST? Or even 'Derwent'? If 'Derwent' then I can probably get that arranged for you tonight, certainly the loco portion anyway.

Edited March 30, 2018 by sem34090

[kernowtim]

If you are in Cornwall weekend of 14-15 April the local branch of the Hornby collectors association have a small (free admission) exhibition at heartlands in redruth, there are usually sales stands in addition to the layouts and displays.

[brianusa]

Its surprising how much a simple set can generate so much interest but that's part of the fun of collecting old trains.  What we have established so far, its a post war M1 Goods set in a post 1956 set red box, prior boxes were blue and the picture probably represents the correct layout or similar excluding what looks like Meccano nuts and bolts?  As has been hinted - so much for 1945!

34090 Sir Eustace Missenden.

 

Brian.

[sem34090]

Unfortunately Tim, I shall be nowhere near that nice county! Any other dates this year? I may be down that way at some stage. That said, at least I'm not too far away from the centre of all drooling: Brighton Toy Museum!

[sem34090]

I, myself, never believed 1945 from the outset: the box artwork put paid to that for a start! I was just curious as to the approximate date for each bit of the 'set'.

 

Well done for cracking my username! I have made it fairly obvious in other parts of the forum though...

 

Regards,

 

E. Missenden

[Il Grifone]

The difference between an M0 and an M1 is that the latter is slightly larger (hard to tell when not side by side) and reverses. The tender here is definitely M1. They came in green or red and the matching wagons were either LNE in grey or LMS in brown. These were always in prenationalisation livery until replaced with the BR 30 series. AFAIK the loco remained the same apart from livery and a simplified coupling, but had a redesigned tender. A new series of rolling stock was introduced at the same time. (I doubt they ever recovered the cost of this exercise.)

 

M0 track is 9" radius (a tram might just get round this!) and M1 12".

 

All the above is from memory. For further imformation I would have to delve into the 'Book of Words'.

 

As an example of value I paid £5 for an M1 engine (repainted black and less tender - I have since seen the latter at £4, but had run out of cash at the time....). The spring had fractured, but since it was right at the end, it was quite easy to repair. She has a Brimtoy tender at present (heresy). The keys alone usually sell for around a fiver in good condition, but the rest doesn't make much.

 

I don't think the set was reintroduced post war in 1945. IIRC itwas '46 or '47. (Materials were hard to source and rationed. - Toys were not considered a priority)

[Il Grifone]

It's not even the 'tat' in particular, it's the ridiculous prices of most things because people think 'Old = £££' (or 'Old = $NZ$NZ$NZ in your case!) 

 

Do you have any pictures of the Hornby 4-4-0? I may be interested and I'm sure a 3D print can be arranged... I'm just worried about the postage cost from you to me! I've never had anything sent to me from abroad as of yet - what is required by me or can you just send it? I wouldn't be sending a 3D print, you'd be buying it directly from the printers I'm afraid.

 

So, would you be wanting a G6? That one needs some serious work to modify it to a functional state. How about a T3? Or a Fox Walker 0-6-0ST? Or even 'Derwent'? If 'Derwent' then I can probably get that arranged for you tonight, certainly the loco portion anyway.

 

Carriage is expensive and you have to watch the declared value to avoid customs duty and the Post office's exorbitant charge for collecting it.

[Nearholmer]

It helps if you declare the contents as ‘toys’, rather than, say, ‘collectibles’, or worse still ‘antiques’, and make clear that it is sent as a gift, not the result of a purchase (assuming it is a gift).

 

If it is sent as a gift, you pay no VAT on the first £39 of value, and no duties on the first £135.

Edited March 31, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Nearholmer]

Back to your ‘where to get things” question.

 

It depends a lot on what you are after, meaning whether you are content with easily-found items in average condition, or want rarities, or excellent condition.

 

Ebay is, I think, fine for common items in average, played-with, condition, especially if you keep an eye on sales for a while to get a feel for what a fair price is. Ebay also turns up the occasional genuine ‘loft find’ rarity, but being a wide open market, those things tend to sell at quite high prices. ‘But it Now’ is strictly for people who know already what a fair price is, because some of the BiN prices asked are shocking.

 

If you want more certainty on condition, and fair dealing, there are two dealers that I would recommend (PM me), but you will pay slightly more.

 

There is a specialist on-line auction, Stop the Drop, but that tends to be more for people who know the market well already.

 

And, there are ‘real’ auctions, which is where many dealers buy, so prices for common items are usually low.

 

One thing to bear in mind is that clockers can have tired springs, so a ‘bargain’ might be a bit disappointing in that respect.

 

Best of all is to come to a TCS or HRCA meeting, where things can be inspected, and a test-run arranged. The bigger meetings attract a lot of dealers, many of whom only sell face-to-face, and have ‘member sales’ stands. Added to which, you will be surrounded by people who will offer you vast amounts of advice, even if you don’t want all of it!

 

If you want to get a feel for ‘fair, but not rock bottom’ prices for Hornby 4-4-0s in decent condition, a good place to start is https://thestationmastersrooms.co.uk You will find that the Compound is probably lowest, then the County and Hunt, then the Schools and L1 ....... is Southern people suffer b3cause Hornby made fewer, and because there are a lot of us chasing the same models!

[sncf231e]

Here is a picture of an M0 next to an M1:

 

 

And here are M1's running in my garden:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1OCkY8ca9w

 

And M0:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFQm0pFqTy0

 

Regards

Fred

[sem34090]

Thank you to everyone! Very much appreciated. Now I need to try and get the whole lot home at some stage.

[Dublodad]

There are HRCA meetings around the country, at which non member visitors are normally welcome. Why not join the "Hornby 0 gauge trains - HRCA" Facebook forum, sales etc not allowable but plenty of 0 Gauge interest. Harry regularly runs "M" series on 9" and 12" circuits as double track.

 

Keep playing

 

Terry

[Nearholmer]

And, if you are near Brighton, the Sussex vintage trains group meet in the area, and have at least one, possibly two, public sessions each year.

 

http://www.sussex-transport.co.uk/svmrc/2018svmrcprog.html

Edited March 31, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Il Grifone]

Amongst a load of overpriced tat, toy fairs are a happy hunting ground for bargains. Boxes of 'junk' under the tables are well worth sorting through.

 

M1 stock has the single link coupling (also found on early stock, the front of later locomotives and as a vintage Meccano part). There is not a wide range - Pullman cars and the LNE and LMS open wagons are all I can think of off hand, though some pre-war items can be found less buffers intended for this series, Pre-war curved rails have built in cant to assist stock to negoiate the sharp curves. Post-war track is all level and the larger stock was limited to the 2 foot radius.

 

Must dig out the book and 'gen up'!

 

Replacement springs are available - £20 when last I looked, but probably more now. Fitting them is fun - they are vicious beasts....

Edited April 1, 2018 by Il Grifone

[sem34090]

Got the set out again today, and gave it a good oil this time. What a difference! Compared to its limp performance the other day, my little M1 quite happily managed to negotiate the entirety of the track with its couple of wagons for a good few circuits. Managed to get a few sets of points and the turntable oiled up and all is well. Oiling the 'axleboxes' on the stock also helped no end.

 

Good fun was had by all! And I may well end up with it, given that it is of little monetary worth but is great fun! And if I accumulate a few other bits of stock it may become a 'thing'...