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Basic DCC automation advice needed


Michaelaface
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Hello group

 

after seeing a few layouts on youtube that featured DCC automation I have decided that it is exactly the way I want to run my model railway, I've been umming and ahhing over how to build and where to put a control panel on my layout for a while now and to be honest, controlling the lot via my PC makes so much more sense for me

 

now I've used the basics of DCC to control my locos for the past 10 years, but never ventured further than that, the currently controller i use is the horribly dated Hornby select which needs upgrading anyway, so I have a basic grasp of whats going on

 

however I am aware there are probably many gaps in my knowledge for anything more advanced, but so far, if I want to run automated trains I've worked out I will need the following

 

- DCC controller with the ability to connect to wireless/computer, the popular choice seems to be the roco z21 is this right? or is there a more affordable option

- Accessory decoders + solenoid driver (I have solenoid point motors already) for points and signals, now what is the best way to go about doing this? I've had a look at the stuff from  megapointscontrollers and they seem pretty easy to use, and this all goes through the main DCC bus yes?

- Block detection, so the video I saw made this look fairly simple using a device from DigiKeijs, but how it works in conjunction with the controller wasnt really explained and it annoys me that im not sure how this information will be received, I know it works by telling the computer which section of track current is being drawn from, but thats it, also this plugs in to the controller via phone cable type plug?

- Software, I've watched loads of videos on the various softwares available and I'm fairly sure I'll be able to work out how to use everything 

 

now is there anything glaringly obvious in here that I've missed, I don't want to go buying a load of stuff and then have it not work cause some of these parts get a little pricey, but like I said, I need a new DCC controller regardless 

 

thanks

Michaela

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To get a grasp of the basics of automation, I suggest the older McKinley Railway videos on YouTube - there are four of them, and they're now about eight years old.   They cover the basics of how blocks work, what the software does, etc..      (Unless you get hooked on the biggest OO railway I've ever seen inside someone's house, skip the more recent 15 or so videos on expansions and new developments at McKinley ). 

 

The concepts in the videos apply to any hardware.  So, can substitute lots of different hardware makers, and you certainly don't need to pick the LocoNet based stuff used by McKinley; part of their choice is what was available 15 to 20 years ago when initial decisions were taken. 

 

 

For Automation, nothing is "cheap", though there are ways to save a bit.   Possibly the cheapest command station suitable for adding lots of automation might be by Digikeijs.   Megapoints, there stuff is fine, but on automation there might be alternatives which do the job for less (because you don't need the user input side if there is a computer doing that job).     Block data usually finds its way back to the command station, and thus the computer, via a network cable,  the main networks are LocoNet and S88 (they are completely different, except that they carry data),  there are other networks around which could be used.    If willing to DIY electronics, then there are quite a few things described on the internet, either as "completely DIY", or as "kits" which reduce the cost somewhat. 

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Just my 2P worth ..

 

I automated my layout for under £100, given that I already use an NCE PowerCab DCC system to control it.

 

I used an NCE USB interface card, which allows me to plug the layout (well, the NCE PowerCab) into my PC as one big USB peripheral. Then I run JMRI software on the PC to configure and control the upper level of my layout, using simple scripts (programs) to control what moves where, when, and what sounds are produced.

 

A beneficial side-effect is that JMRI allows me to use my iPhone as a wireless controller once I installed the free WiThrottleLite app.

 

For block detection, I use reed switches under the track, triggered by magnets under each end of each train. The reed switches are monitored by an NCE AIU input card, which makes the state of the reed switches readable by the NCE PowerCab and, thus, by the JMRI scripts.

 

I often have a train or two shuttling back and forth on Offerston Quay as I work on other stuff.

 

JMRI / NCE can operate signals (which are normally operated by manual switches and a Megapoints signal card) using this auxiliary decoder card from eBay to turn the DCC auxiliary on/off commands into relay open/close which can then operate the Megapoints inputs.

 

All three of these cards came to under £100 together, as I recall.

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There are other options than track detection out there now too, a system called GamesOnTrack uses a sort of GPS system to work out where the locos are completely separate to any control system, this can then link to your DCC system and control your trains. It can even work out the track plan of the layout by following where the locos go for a little while!

The entire system can be fitted to an existing layout with no need to make any changes to electrical systems to create detection blocks

 

http://www.gamesontrack.co.uk/pages/webside.asp?articleGuid=64556

 

Andi

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One of my friends has automated his complex 00 layout using Traincontroller software and Digitrax controllers. The signals work and there are several reversing loops. As someone who thought automation was a daft idea, seeing his layout converted me. The computer can be running several trains simultaneously, but people can run other trains at the same time either using a hand controler or the computer - when driving manually it is vital to obey the signals.

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I am doing exactly this at the moment to my H0e layout and it isn't that expensive at all, not the mega bucks that people say :)

 

I have chosen to implement Railcom feedback which has made it a bit more expensive, you could knock £60 off my total easily.

 

3 x Digikeijs DR5088RC giving 48 feed backs @ £80 each, total £240

1 x iTrain standard licence @ £176

2 x 100m 16/0.2 wire @ £8.50 each, total £17

 

That gives a total of £433 which could be nearer £350 if you get DR4088 feedback so instead.

 

I looked at JMRI and RocRail and decided that even as a person who has been a system architect in the IT industry for many years these packages weren't going to do it for me and the price of iTrain and the reactive simplicity won me over.

 

What I now have is full automation where I press the 'go' button and iTrain then routes the trains, switches the points, stops them at the stations, switches the signals and has many more trains running at once than my brain can manage - I actually find it quite therapeutic watching them run on their own without my intervention :)

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Hi,

 

Personally when I was deciding pretty much the same as you I went with Digitrax system as I felt that there was more third party support for Digitrax and there is a very large user group with a wealth of knowledge also. As to software I user traincontroller gold witch is the top level of this software. One bonus of this software is that its in continuous development and has also a good support group too. Strangely enough just last week I was talking to a trader who was trying jmri but they couldn't get on with it. There is other software but I'll let others who have experience of this explained the particular aspects of it, but traincontroller is a very comprehensive program and I feel is very easy to get started with basics functions, it also has the benefit that a user has done a series of videos on it which are very good. But as been said it's expensive, but comes in bronze, silver ,gold with various levels of functionality and prices. For accessory controllers I use the Dac20 from Signatrak. Maybe a suggestion is to look at the various user groups for all the systems to see any pitfalls users find as all systems have there problems at times or the benefits buy asking users on each group what's the postitives for any particular system.

 

Andy

Edited by Andymsa
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Thank you for all your input its been very informative! 

at the moment I think for what I want to do, I'm leaning toward the Digikeijs command station and feedback controller, I think the digitrax stuff goes a little too far outside my price range
 

I'm going to leave out the signalling for the time being because I'm not entirely sure how to go about that without the costs skyrocketing
 

as for solenoid control I'm still not sure what to use to control them, I've been told that the lenz RS150 won't provide enough power for peco solenoids

and as for software I'm leaning toward train controller bronze as that's what I've seen used and it does what I'd like to do

I've also had a look at JMRI and I'm not sure if its because I had no hardware connected to it, but I just couldn't figure it out on my own at all (I tend to prefer using software I can figure out myself rather than having to read endless manuals)

but the main issue is the solenoid point decoder, not sure what to go for there, Hornby's one can be found for roughly £35 and claims it can change 4 points
or there's a DCC concepts one

what are your thoughts?
 

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It likely doesn't matter which brand of point decoder you use, they are all likely to fall flat at trying to move 4 points _at once_.  I've very little experience with solenoid type point motors on Long Marton, having avoided them for exactly that reason.  My choice is to use stall type motors, or servos, for controlling the positions of things.  I think I have ~70 turnouts on Long Marton, with the majority of them activated using Torti.  I'm using Digitrax, but then I live in Canada, so the euro choices are much harder to source.  

 

One piece of advice is not to rely on things that don't yet exist...for a long time, the Loconet repeater didn't exist, and I nearly had to split mine into 2 sections because of the # of devices connected.  As it is, I have some issues with Loconet not working "right", but it is probably 99.5% reliable.  

 

Vaporware is something to be aware of...

 

There should be a link to Long Marton appear at the bottom of this- I run typically up to 5 trains in motion, using RailRoaid & Co 5.0C4 (so quite out of date software), and Digitrax for ~85% of the electronics- the rest is a mixture of Tam Valley & RR Cirkits (for servo's, signals & the display controller).

 

James

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It likely doesn't matter which brand of point decoder you use, they are all likely to fall flat at trying to move 4 points _at once_.  I've very little experience with solenoid type point motors on Long Marton, having avoided them for exactly that reason.  

 

I don't think he's trying to move four points from the same output - just four points from a four channel decoder. 

I've experimented with the Hornby version and found them "lacking".......... Likewise with the ESU Switchpilot and Lenz LS150

 

The DCC Concepts solenoid decoder has individual capacitors per channel, so a number of channels can be fired at the same time. 

I would recommend the later ADS-2SX or 8SX versions over the 2FX/8FX.

 

Having said that, my preferred choice of DCC controlled point motor is a DCC Concepts Digital IP.

 

Cheers,

Mick

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Thank you for all your input its been very informative! 

 

at the moment I think for what I want to do, I'm leaning toward the Digikeijs command station and feedback controller, I think the digitrax stuff goes a little too far outside my price range

 

what are your thoughts?

 

Hi,

 

My layout is fully automated using TrainController Gold. I have the required occupancy sensing and turnout control plus the fun but optional signal and electromagnetic uncoupler control.

 

Now I used all RR-CirKits electronics because of the design, versatility, ease of installation and configuration - not to mention top notch support.

 

I have a fairly complete set of Digikeijs devices because I like the product line and wanted to have a decent knowledge of the devices in case the subject came up.

 

If you like the Digikeijs have you considered using the DR4018 for turnout control?

 

Frederick

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I don't think he's trying to move four points from the same output - just four points from a four channel decoder. 

I've experimented with the Hornby version and found them "lacking".......... Likewise with the ESU Switchpilot and Lenz LS150

 

The DCC Concepts solenoid decoder has individual capacitors per channel, so a number of channels can be fired at the same time. 

I would recommend the later ADS-2SX or 8SX versions over the 2FX/8FX.

 

Having said that, my preferred choice of DCC controlled point motor is a DCC Concepts Digital IP.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

I wasn't thinking of firing 4 on one channel- but the more likely scenario of trying to fire 2-3 in a series for a route.  Without individual CDU's for each output, that way leads to madness... the slow motion versions don't have the same problems, as at least with Torti, the moving current is lower than the stalled current.  (important things to note:  DS44 outputs will reliably operate only ONE torti... how do I know?  Experience...  My choice of stationary decoder has been DS 64 for a while, because they do a bunch of things, some of which are not on the tin.  (to do with the input side mostly)  Since most of Long Marton has been together for >10 years, I don't know if there is a better product out there now.

 

James

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I don't think he's trying to move four points from the same output - just four points from a four channel decoder. 

I've experimented with the Hornby version and found them "lacking".......... Likewise with the ESU Switchpilot and Lenz LS150

 

The DCC Concepts solenoid decoder has individual capacitors per channel, so a number of channels can be fired at the same time. 

I would recommend the later ADS-2SX or 8SX versions over the 2FX/8FX.

 

Having said that, my preferred choice of DCC controlled point motor is a DCC Concepts Digital IP.

 

Cheers

Interesting that you found the ESU "lacking"; I just got an ESU switchpilot to operate PECO PL-10 motors; initially I couldn't get them to work off of the ESU LokProgrammer; but once I connected 16V AC from an old controller to the "PWR IN" they worked - although there isn't the same sort  of "thud" that you get from a CDU! Seems that they take a lot of current and are thus very sensitive to the available power; the Lokprogammer just doesn't supply enough current. But if I was starting afresh with new point motors I would go with something like the DCC concepts motors like you suggest.

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in another thread a long time ago, i compared the results of powering the switchpilot by its 3 different means...

Least power was from smooth 12Vdc .... this is regulated down internally to 5V for the logic, [ as are any power input] and the12Vdc assisted by a capacitor is transferred to the output [ good for colour light signal use]

 

then dcc track/bus power .. the simplest to fit as the bus is fed to both control and power inputs.

{Assuming you have typical dcc track voltage of 12-16Vdcc and not the 22-23V max]  peak voltage about the same as track voltage.

 

and most powerful is the nominal 16vAc from an unregulated transformer output [ might be 23VAc off load ] .. which is rectified and charges the internal smooting capacitor [ not a cdu] ... and so the PEAK voltage of 1.4x 16Vac or more is passed to rhe output to drive your solenoids. this could be almost 30v  [ off load ac rms x 1.4V for peak voltage ]

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A problem with the Hornby Points decoder is that although it contains 4 channels they all share one CDU which takes at least 2 seconds to recharge between uses. This means you can’t throw points connected to the same decoder faster than one every 2 seconds.

The DCC Concepts decoders have a CDU per channel so that limitation does not apply.

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I have 4 servos on one output using Megapoints hardware, and they work fine. I think I’ve got 23 servos attached to one of their 12-output boards - crossovers and what not.

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When I used Lenz LS150 (now use Cobalt IP Digital)  I would fire 4 Peco point motors together and it didn't have issues - do you have a separate power supply to the LS150, that is what I did and worked a treat not needing CDUs anywhere

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When I used Lenz LS150 (now use Cobalt IP Digital)  I would fire 4 Peco point motors together and it didn't have issues - do you have a separate power supply to the LS150, that is what I did and worked a treat not needing CDUs anywhere

I've heard this before, maybe I had the only ones that performed as they should do as the overload cutout in them cuts out at before 4A, which is insufficient to operate Seeps. They only have 4A rated triacs

When I had LS150s they wouldn't even fire Seeps reliably one at a time! The PSU was a 16v AC 80VA very conservatively rated (i.e could give 50% more for short periods)

One problem with LS150s is that they operate sequentially. Each output has to wait for the time period of the previous one to finish before it will operate, no use if you are using slo-mos (stall motor) point machines

I now use Tortoise and Switch-8s, totally reliable. They operate effectively simultaneously  (The only two Cobalts I had were noisy and both ended up sticking after a period of use).

 

Keith

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​I agree that the Cobalt motors aren't the quietest around - though the noise more pleasant that the thunk-buzz of the Peco motors :)

 

 

I found that after a few days I could remove the screws holding the IP digitals to my baseboard and the glue had cured enough to hold without them. This gave a significant noise reduction, still not totally quiet though. I'm just now hoping that in the heat of the summer months the glue doesn't melt and allow the motors to fall off. 

Edited by NickC
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I found that after a few days I could remove the screws holding the IP digitals to my baseboard and the glue had cured enough to hold without them. This gave a significant noise reduction, still not totally quiet though. I'm just now hoping that in the heat of the summer months the glue doesn't melt and allow the motors to fall off. 

 

They won't.... we are talking British Summer heat here....

They don't fall off in West Australian heat either.

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited by newbryford
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I found that after a few days I could remove the screws holding the IP digitals to my baseboard and the glue had cured enough to hold without them. This gave a significant noise reduction, still not totally quiet though. I'm just now hoping that in the heat of the summer months the glue doesn't melt and allow the motors to fall off. 

 

​Nick, do you mean the adhesive pads that are supplied with the motors? I find it is hard to get them to stick in the first place to the plywood base I am using let alone remaining there for a long period :(

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​Nick, do you mean the adhesive pads that are supplied with the motors? I find it is hard to get them to stick in the first place to the plywood base I am using let alone remaining there for a long period :(

 

Apologies for the :offtopic:

 

I've never had a problem - unless they have to be removed and they can take the plywood with them, particularly if it's not better grade stuff.

I had to reposition one and I cut through the foam with a blade and then scraped the remainder off the wood.

 

When the plywood is clean, sealed or painted, then they really do stick like the proverbial brown stuff to the woven material.

 

As mentioned above - put them in with the foam and screws and then back the screws off a day or two later.

Edited by newbryford
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​Nick, do you mean the adhesive pads that are supplied with the motors? I find it is hard to get them to stick in the first place to the plywood base I am using let alone remaining there for a long period :(

 

Iain, yes I find the supplied adhesive pads stick firmly to my baseboard (which is marine grade ply).

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