Numbering of LBSCR E4 in Wartime Black

[Garethp8873]

Recently, I've had a Bachmann LBSCR E4 473 repainted into Wartime Black livery and numbered as 2474. Before this loco is returned to me, does the E4 need numbering on the front and back bufferbeam?

[gwrrob]

Graham Muz will be able to confirm this .

[Spannerman]

Looks an absolute peach!

 

Nik

[Garethp8873]

Looks an absolute peach!

 

Nik

The guy who did has also done a GWR 5600 and two Prairies but this is the icing on the cake

[bécasse]

Front buffer beam and bunker rear.

[Jack P]

I have to say 'snap' I just finished repainting one into wartime black and am trying to decide on the appropriate number.

 

Front buffer beam and bunker rear.

 

I'm not doubting you or your sources, but I was under the impression that black locos on had it only on the front buffer beam?

[Wickham Green]

I have to say 'snap' I just finished repainting one into wartime black and am trying to decide on the appropriate number.

 

 

I'm not doubting you or your sources, but I was under the impression that black locos on had it only on the front buffer beam?

I think it might have been Eastleigh that only put rear numbers on green locos ....... there are certainly pictures of black tenders & bunkers with rear numbers ............. the chances of finding a photo of the backside of any particular loco are pretty slim so nobody will know if your interpretation of Rule 1 is correct or not !

[bécasse]

I think it might have been Eastleigh that only put rear numbers on green locos ....... there are certainly pictures of black tenders & bunkers with rear numbers ............. the chances of finding a photo of the backside of any particular loco are pretty slim so nobody will know if your interpretation of Rule 1 is correct or not !

 

There must have been a practical reason why numbers were painted on the rears of tenders and bunkers and I would suggest that it was probably because of the number of roundhouse sheds on the former Brighton system. That in turn would suggest that a Brighton loco would have had the number on the bunker even in wartime black, even if such numbers were omitted from some other locos.

[Wickham Green]

There must have been a practical reason why numbers were painted on the rears of tenders and bunkers and I would suggest that it was probably because of the number of roundhouse sheds on the former Brighton system. That in turn would suggest that a Brighton loco would have had the number on the bunker even in wartime black, even if such numbers were omitted from some other locos.

There's a shot of "BRITISH AIRWAYS" liveried s1178 in "The Wainwright P Tanks" ( eg https://www.amazon.co.uk/Klaus-Marx/e/B001K6A2M4/ref=la_B001K6A2M4_ntt_srch_lnk_3?qid=1523437292&sr=1-3 ) : you can't see whether this loco has a rear number but the radial tank alongside seems not to - while the C2X in the background does ..... both 'Brighton' & both black !

[Gareth Collier]

This Terrier certainly has a number on the rear bunker:

[Graham_Muz]

During the Maunsell period post renumbering in 1931 to drop the A, B & E, prefixes there was a move away from the brass plates on the rear on bunkers and tenders and large painted numbers appeared in a mixture of styles, although usually shaded serif.

 

Bullied liveried locos generally had 6 inch yellow numerals shaded in black on both buffer beams (there were a few exceptions pre war with larger numerals being used) usually to the right of the coupling hook. It was just the number the use of the No. prefix was dropped. 

Originally pre war tenders and bunkers rears also had the loco number in standard size numerals but this practice especially for tank locos was dropped during the war, even for tender locos. So from a black perspective it would depend on if it was an early 1940 repaint or not. 

Post war those tender locos regaining malachite usually also got the rear numbers, but not all! 

As views of the tender rears tend to be pretty rare I tend not to bother on my malachite locos unless I do have actual proof, and none of my black locos have them.

[Wickham Green]

During the Maunsell period post renumbering in 1931 to drop the A, B & E, prefixes there was a move away from the brass plates on the rear on bunkers and tenders and large painted numbers appeared in a mixture of styles, although usually shaded serif.

 

Bullied liveried locos generally had 6 inch yellow numerals shaded in black on both buffer beams (there were a few exceptions pre war with larger numerals being used) usually to the right of the coupling hook. It was just the number the use of the No. prefix was dropped. 

 

Originally pre war tenders and bunkers rears also had the loco number in standard size numerals but this practice especially for tank locos was dropped during the war, even for tender locos. So from a black perspective it would depend on if it was an early 1940 repaint or not. 

Post war those tender locos regaining malachite usually also got the rear numbers, but not all! 

 

As views of the tender rears tend to be pretty rare I tend not to bother on my malachite locos unless I do have actual proof, and none of my black locos have them.

From the few tender behinds that appear in the backgrounds of photos I get the feeling there was a brief resurgence of back-end numbers on black locos early in BR days - I seem to recall other C2X ( apart from that mentioned above ) and a couple of WD 2-8-0s ! .................. but, as you say evidence is scarce.

[Jack P]

Though I'd drop in now that my E4 is done, and just so happens to be the next in sequence numerically

 

 

I took a bit of a gamble with the bufferbeam number, I've seen a few LBSC locos with the number on the left, and a few with it on the right. The E4's didn't need the triangle on the beam too did they?

 

 

Would like to see OP's when it's done!

[Jack P]

I thought I would ask here, 

 

http://www.ipernity.com/doc/philsutters/26520259/in/album/515657

 

the E4 in this picture has riveted side tanks, and a row of rivets around the back of the smokebox. When were the rivets added?

[Kubes]

I was told by someone, I can't remember who now, that some E4s had outer cladding removed from the tanks revealing the rivetted sides.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Kubes

[Anglian]

I hate to be the one to write this but it may help you get a better model. You might want to ask the painter to take a fresh look at the bunker numbers.

 

On the left hand side the last number 4 appears to be higher and tighter to the 7 than perhaps it should be.

 

On the right hand side the gap between the first 4 and the 7 is wider than the gaps between the 2 4 and 7 4.

 

Of course this may be entirely prototypical as I've seen this level of variation in photographs, not specifically relating to the E4 class but on steam locomotives in general.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Anglian

[Jack P]

I was told by someone, I can't remember who now, that some E4s had outer cladding removed from the tanks revealing the rivetted sides.

 

Much appreciated! I don't suppose you have any recollection of when this was done? (Pre or post nationalisation) I can't seem to find much photo evidence on the subject.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Jack P

[Kubes]

I've only ever seen photos taken in late BR days so I suspect it was cheaper to remove the cladding than repair it on an asset which only had a short working life expectancy. It would make an interesting variant though.

[GreenGiraffe22]

Firstly those sunshine liveried E4s look amazing! I've been toying with the idea of converting B473 to wartime black 2473, was holding off in case Bachmann decide to announce one eventually... 

 

Secondly I noticed looking at the 2 Southern Black P classes from Hattons that 1555 only has the number on the bunker and 1558 doesn't have the number front or back, I assume that's how they were?

 

This photo of 1556 shows a number on the front buffer beam https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/SECR-tank-engines/i-G2dz2V3

 

Annoyingly this photo of 1558 has a buffer right in the way of where a number might be https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/SECR-tank-engines/i-zF98NT8