Order of coaches

[george stein]

In the age of steam (I believe) First Class coaches were usually at the end of the rake (away from the smoke & flying ash) while non-1st-class was closer to the engine.  Did this apply to the GWR? I.e., in what order would a rake of 60' Colletts be marshaled behind the locomotive?  Would the Brake be in the.rear?  If two Brakes, one in front and one in rear?

 

Basic question, I know, but being in the USA it's a great mystery.

 

Thanks

 

George

North Carolina

[phil-b259]

In the age of steam (I believe) First Class coaches were usually at the end of the rake (away from the smoke & flying ash) while non-1st-class was closer to the engine.  Did this apply to the GWR? I.e., in what order would a rake of 60' Colletts be marshaled behind the locomotive?  Would the Brake be in the.rear?  If two Brakes, one in front and one in rear?

 

Basic question, I know, but being in the USA it's a great mystery.

 

Thanks

 

George

North Carolina

 

Many companies have (and still do) arrange the first class accommodation for Express / InterCity trains to be located closest to the buffer stops when the train arrives at / departs from London. Whether the GWR did this I am not qualified to say, but given they did not go in for 'fixed sets' like the Southern Railway did then having first class towards the London end would be easier to manage.

[DCB]

The GWR had very few 1st class coaches in the 20th Century, They liked Brake Composites and full thirds, the branch line Bogie B sets of the 20s and 30s were pairs of brake composites permanently coupled.  The GW liked to avoid 1st class passengers being killed so generally the 1st class compartments were in the middle of the coaches.

 

The GWR wouldn't normally run a set of 60ft Colletts.

 

The GWR main line corridor coaches generally roamed around in pairs or singly, and so there was a very high proportion of brake composite coaches,  some were slipped at speed, "Slip Coaches." but the generally a train would consist of several sections for and from different stations, Each section had to have a brake coach which was a coach with a "Hand Brake" which would hold it when the vacuum brake leaked off and this was contained in the guards compartment also used for parcels.   I think most US passenger stock had a hand brake on every coach.     

 

On the GWR The Cornish Riviera usually had a matched set of coaches but few other trains did, various designs of coaches from Churchward 70ft, Collett 60ft, Dean Clerestory would run in the same formation such as 4 for Cheltenham 1 for Gloucester 1 for Hereford  detached at Swindon 5 for Bristol plus 3 attached at Swindon continuing to Bristol where 5 LMS coaches were added and 3 of the original 5 detached continuing to Plymouth. 

Very different to some other railways where the whole train ran as a complete set throughout.

 

So no the GWR didn't put 1st class at the back of trains it spread them throughout the train.

Edited April 9, 2018 by DavidCBroad

[Steamport Southport]

If you want typical formations then quite a few of them are on the Comet Models website.

 

http://www.cometmodels.co.uk/

 

Click on PRODUCTS then click on GWR Coach Kits And Sides. Then there is a list of carriage types. If you click on view under PDF then it displays the kit instructions and most of them have typical formations.

 

 

 

Jason

[The Fatadder]

Welcome to the minefield that is GWR Coach formations...

 

The first thing to understand is that there is no typical formation, everything is tailored to the needs of that specific working.  Further to that a single train may be comprised of 2 or 3 different sections, some of which may be a block others a single coach.   Looking at the working timetable for the South Devon Mainline in 1947 (obtained through the BR Coaches yahoo group), there are very few workings with any form of standardisation, other than the M Set’s for the local workings (Brake Third (BTK), Third (TK), Composite (CK), BTK).

 

The only working on the South Devon which was scheduled (in 1947) to include an all First was the Cornish Riviera Express (on which it was the third and fifth from the rear on the down working) but there were composites in the front half of the train (BTK, TK, TK, CK, Dining, FK,  BTK, FK, TK, BTK).  This was the case for the “new” formation of mostly sunshine stock / Hawksworth thirds, the other formation running was still with a complete set of Centenaries which only had composites (other than the restaurant first).

 

For almost every other train the composites are located pretty much in the middle of each block of coaches, where there is a restaurant more often than not it will have a composite either side (unless running as a pair with a restaurant third)

 

Then you get workings line the 06:45 Bristol to Penzance  in which the composites are both at the front of the train (BCK /CK) and there is an LMS portion on the rear.(BCK B     CK       TK        TK        BTK A  LMS BTK B      LMS CK            LMS TK )

 

 

As has been said previously very few trains ran as a block of the same coaches, the CRE being an exception, so to get a really convincing GWR coach formation kit building / conversion is the only option. 

[Il Grifone]

No 1 platform at Paddington has the ticket office at the side near the buffer stops and first class would be marshalled to minimise walking for the privileged few, but like most things "It ain't necessarily so".

 

It was normal practice to have a brake at each end, but see above. IIRC regulations permitted no more than two carriages to be attached behind the rear brake van.

 

In the early days first class carriages were in the middle of the train in case of collision. This practice tended to continue.... (For example, the 1925 sets were BTK-TK-CK-CK-TK-BTK with the first class sections of the composites together. The carriages were also 'handed' so that the corridors were all on the same side. Being the Great Western, it is probable that the sets did not last very long before being split up....

[george stein]

Thank you. Helpful and informative advice.  Seems as if the "GWR Way" was to do whatever seemed appropriate to getting the job done!

 

George

North Carolina

[kandc_au]

In this thread I still struggle when reading a TT  with coach formations showing a first in the formation. one can only assume it was whatever!
Would this be correct?
Or where it says First would that vehicle be a composite???

 

khris

[OnTheBranchline]

Thank you. Helpful and informative advice.  Seems as if the "GWR Way" was to do whatever seemed appropriate to getting the job done!

 

George

North Carolina

 

If you ran a working with a Hawksworth, a Collett, a clerestory and a Hornby 4 wheeler, nobody would bat an eye.

[Il Grifone]

If you ran a working with a Hawksworth, a Collett, a clerestory and a Hornby 4 wheeler, nobody would bat an eye.

 

About the Hornby four wheeler yes as it's awful. AFAIK it bears a passing resemblance to an ancient S&DJR carriage, but that's as far as it goes. A Ratio four wheeler ion the other hand....

 

To be accurate, four and six wheel* carriages were getting rather rare by the time the Hawksworth vehicles appeared.

 

*One at least of the lesser railways used these as brake vans.