Lenz 23151 USB/LAN interface - questions

[melmerby]

Hi all

 

Following from intermittent dropouts when using TrainController I decided to use LAN as a connection instead of USB.

I changed my DR5000 to LAN control and that works fine but I've still had the odd TC dropout "continuing offline" type message.

I have invested in a Lenz 23151 so that I could convert my Lenz system to LAN as well.

Firstly I connected the USB and that went fine. It works with TC as expected.

Next I tried the LAN but I cannot find how to connect to it. The address Lenz gives doesnt work (192.168.0.200) so I pinged the network and it isn't there see below:

 

 

132 is the DR5000, 140 is the LAN hub and 254 is the fibre router.

I don't know what 253 is as although I can ping it I cannot connect to it.

 

Any suggestions

 

Cheeers

 

Keith

 

 

[PaulCheffus]

Hi all

 

Following from intermittent dropouts when using TrainController I decided to use LAN as a connection instead of USB.

I changed my DR5000 to LAN control and that works fine but I've still had the odd TC dropout "continuing offline" type message.

I have invested in a Lenz 23151 so that I could convert my Lenz system to LAN as well.

Firstly I connected the USB and that went fine. It works with TC as expected.

Next I tried the LAN but I cannot find how to connect to it. The address Lenz gives doesnt work (192.168.0.200) so I pinged the network and it isn't there see below:

 

ping.JPG

 

132 is the DR5000, 140 is the LAN hub and 254 is the fibre router.

I don't know what 253 is as although I can ping it I cannot connect to it.

 

Any suggestions

 

Cheeers

 

Keith

Hi

 

That’s because the Lenz interface is on 192.168.0.200 but the rest of your network is on 192.168.1.xxx. You need to change the Lenz interface to 192.168.1.200 how to do this is described in the manual.

 

In essence disconnect your laptop from the WiFi. Connect the interface using an Ethernet cable to the laptop. Change the laptop IP address to 192.168.0.100. Update the Lenz is address to 192.168.1.200. Reset the laptop back to having a dynamic IP address and connect back to the WiFi. You should the. Be able to see it on your network.

 

Ping -a 192.168.1.253 might return the name of the device on that IP address.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Edited April 10, 2018 by PaulCheffus

[melmerby]

Hi

 

That’s because the Lenz interface is on 192.168.0.200 but the rest of your network is on 192.168.1.xxx. You need to change the Lenz interface to 192.168.1.200 how to do this is described in the manual.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

Cheers I'll try that.

You learn something everyday. (I'm not into networking)

 

Keith

[WIMorrison]

You have another issue if you are using 192.168.1.255 as the address of a device on your network - what do you think you are pinging when you type that address?

 

The 255 address is a reserved broadcast address and should not be used for network address - the highest you should use is 254.

[melmerby]

You have another issue if you are using 192.168.1.255 as the address of a device on your network - what do you think you are pinging when you type that address?

 

The 255 address is a reserved broadcast address and should not be used for network address - the highest you should use is 254.

As far as i know i haven't got a 192.168.1.255.

Are you saying when you ping that address shouldn't be there? (I note it is static unlike the other devices)

 

Cheers

 

keith

[WIMorrison]

The x.x.x.255 address is a broadcast address that is used within network protocols and is unavailable for use as an address. You will get a ping response from it as it is actually any device in the network. The other thing is that the static and dynamic that is referred to here is not the static and dynamic addressing that comes from DHCP. Your router address .254 is a fixed address and it is that which is issuing out dynamic addresses to the rest of your devices through DHCP.

 

My question perhaps should have been phrased - why were you pinging that address? it provide you with no useful information although it can be used by arp to get the MAC addresses.

 

IIRC you can also access the Lenz interface by opening your internet browser and going to the URL that is in the 23150 manual - sorry can't recall what the URL is, however you do need to be on the correct subnet to access it (as mentioned earlier)

 

I would recommend that when you put the new address into the 23150 that you use an address lower than 192.168.1.63 as most address pools on home routers exclude that range from the DHCP table to allow for fixed addresses to be issued though I don't know if the Techicolor router you are using (from Plusnet?) does exclude addresses for static issue.

Edited April 10, 2018 by WIMorrison

[melmerby]

The x.x.x.255 address is a broadcast address that is used within network protocols and is unavailable for use as an address. You will get a ping response from it as it is actually any device in the network.

 

My quest perhaps should have been phrased - why were you pinging that address? it provide you with no useful information although it can be used by arp to get the MAC addresses.

 

IIRC you can also access the Lenz interface by opening your internet browser and going to the URL that is in the 23150 manual - sorry can't recall what the URL is, however you do need to be on the correct subnet to access it (as mentioned earlier)

As I couldn't talk to the 23151 I was following what it said on a network help page to find all devices on your network.

Ping that address then arp -a (which I posted as a screengrab)

 

Q. How do you change something's network address if you can't access it?

My WLAN hub has to be accessed with it's current address before you can change it to something else.

(as I said I know nothing about networks!)

 

Keith

[WIMorrison]

keith

 

you should not change anything on your router - you are only going to change your PC address temporarily to access the 23151

 

if you follow this page https://pureinfotech.com/set-static-ip-address-windows-10/ you will be able to put a static address into your pc/laptop which I suggest is 192.168.1.10 with a subnet of 255.255.255.0.

 

then connect the 23151 directly to the lan port of your computer using the cable that was in the box (or another cable) then enter 192.168.0.200 into the browser and that should give you the 23151 interface. once in that interface replace the 192.168.0.200 address with 192.168.1.20 and a subnet of 255.255.255.0. If it asks for a default gateway then put in 192.168.1.254.

 

save the settings and disconnect the 23151 from your computer and connect it to your lan. 

 

You then need to reset the computer/laptop back to using DHCP and if you cant recall the reverse of what you did to get the static address then refer here https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/help/15089/windows-change-tcp-ip-settings

 

your computer will then be back on the LAN and you should be able to connect to the Lenz 23151 by using 192.168.1.20 in your browser - this is the address you should use for TC also.

 

Iain

Edited April 10, 2018 by WIMorrison

[melmerby]

That sounds horrendous. One slip and it's b*ggered.

 

I wonder why have Lenz set an address outside the normal range?

This stuff is supposed to be plug and play!

 

Keith

[PaulCheffus]

That sounds horrendous. One slip and it's b*ggered.

 

I wonder why have Lenz set an address outside the normal range?

This stuff is supposed to be plug and play!

 

Keith

Hi

 

Its not out of the normal range for some routers as supplied which have the addresses 192.168.0.xxx

 

However the recent router I received from my ISP when I changed to Fibre came with the IP address as 192.168.1.xxx. This was changed to match the rest of my network.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[WIMorrison]

It isn’t difficult and you don’t ruin things - all you do is go back to where you were

 

The Lenz numbers are common for many systems - it is your IP provider (PlusNet?) that has chosen to be different from the norm.

 

Your outer choice is to simply change the address range in your router from 192.168.1.1-254 into 192.168.0.1-254 which is also an easy task

 

You can find the instructions for the Technicolor router that you have on the web

[melmerby]

Thanks everyone for the tips & suggestions, they were very helpful.

 

Now sorted and operating as required.

 

Cheers

 

Keith

[Bucoops]

Glad you're sorted

 

I find when hunting down "rogue" devices this program is useful: http://www.advanced-ip-scanner.com/index4.php

 

It can also connect you to built in web pages in many cases and also can give clues as to the device manufacturer (It might tell you who made the network part rather than the whole device).

Edited April 14, 2018 by Bucoops

[WIMorrison]

wont help though when you are on the wrong subnet (and that is what the issue was)

 

useful tool though

[Bucoops]

I only saw one subnet mask mentioned -  255.255.255.0? 

 

I will point out I'm not an expert but at work we have different IP ranges for each office but as they're all on the same subnet accessibility isn't restricted.

[WIMorrison]

​255.255.255.0 is not a subnet, it is a subnet mask specifying how many hosts or in the subnet - in this case 254.

 

​the subnet he was using was 192.168.1.x and he needed to be accessing 192.168.0.x which is a different, but still private subnet.

 

​It is explained more fully here https://www.iplocation.net/subnet-mask

[RFS]

Not sure what type of PC you have for TC but mine's a recycled desktop which has a Gbit Ethernet port on the motherboard which is directly connected to the BT router for internet access.  The router uses the 192.168.1.x address range.

 

For the 23151 I simply installed a separate fast ethernet card in a spare PCI slot.  These cards cost around £6 but I was fortunate to have one in my spares box. With a separate card it's just a question on addressing it as 192.168.0.201 and then connecting the 23151 to it directly using a crossover ethernet cable - see page 6 of the 23151 instructions. The only difference from the Lenz instructions was not to configure this as the default DHCP gateway as that's managed by the BT router link.

 

Bear in mind also that each time you apply a new patch level to TC it wipes the IP address from its configuration so you have to go back and re-enter it.

[melmerby]

Not sure what type of PC you have for TC but mine's a recycled desktop which has a Gbit Ethernet port on the motherboard which is directly connected to the BT router for internet access.  The router uses the 192.168.1.x address range.

 

For the 23151 I simply installed a separate fast ethernet card in a spare PCI slot.  These cards cost around £6 but I was fortunate to have one in my spares box. With a separate card it's just a question on addressing it as 192.168.0.201 and then connecting the 23151 to it directly using a crossover ethernet cable - see page 6 of the 23151 instructions. The only difference from the Lenz instructions was not to configure this as the default DHCP gateway as that's managed by the BT router link.

 

Bear in mind also that each time you apply a new patch level to TC it wipes the IP address from its configuration so you have to go back and re-enter it.

My railway room PC is approx 100ft of cable away from my main PC which is connected to a Plusnet router which is fed by an Openreach fibre modem.

The Railway room PC has a WLAN hub which gets the incoming LAN and distributes it to the PC, The DR5000 and now the 23151, with possibilty for a wireless handset.

Not Much scope for an onboard card.

 

Keith

 

EDIT here is a sketch of my setup:

Edited April 14, 2018 by melmerby

[Bucoops]

​255.255.255.0 is not a subnet, it is a subnet mask specifying how many hosts or in the subnet - in this case 254.

 

​the subnet he was using was 192.168.1.x and he needed to be accessing 192.168.0.x which is a different, but still private subnet.

 

​It is explained more fully here https://www.iplocation.net/subnet-mask

 

Yes but if they're on the same mask then they are visible to other ranges with the IP scanner so finding the device is possible. 

[WIMorrison]

Yes but if they're on the same mask then they are visible to other ranges with the IP scanner so finding the device is possible. 

 

Only if you change the subnet mask to a Class B mask which most home routers will not allow forcing you to remain with a Class C which will only address 254 hosts per subnet.

 

If you change to a Class B subnet mask such as 255.255.254.0 then you can address both 192.168.0.x and 192.168.1.x addresses at the same time, however the router may not allow you to do set this mask as many are fixed subnets and the NAT or Masquerade may not work for external connectivity this denying you internet connectivity as this is not how home ADSL routers are designed to work.

 

Hence I did not provide that advice earlier.

[Bucoops]

Only if you change the subnet mask to a Class B mask which most home routers will not allow forcing you to remain with a Class C which will only address 254 hosts per subnet.

 

If you change to a Class B subnet mask such as 255.255.254.0 then you can address both 192.168.0.x and 192.168.1.x addresses at the same time, however the router may not allow you to do set this mask as many are fixed subnets and the NAT or Masquerade may not work for external connectivity this denying you internet connectivity as this is not how home ADSL routers are designed to work.

 

Hence I did not provide that advice earlier.

 

 

Maybe this is why I can see other IP ranges - I haven't used an ISP supplied router in 10+ years. Currently use a Draytek.

[WIMorrison]

sounds like your router has been configured with routing tables betwween differenty subnets, which isn't the default setting for Draytek either.

[melmerby]

Hi Iain

 

A dumb question based on what's above!

 

If my Edimax 7228A hub is masked with 255.255.254.0 does that mean it will cover both 192.168.1.XXX & 192.168.0.XXX ?

 

Cheers

 

Keith

Edited April 16, 2018 by melmerby

[WIMorrison]

Keith,

 

Theoretically yes, but it may need a route defined between the address ranges and almost certainly will need one to ensure that NAT works correctly to the outside world of the internet.

 

The challenge is I don’t know the myriad of routers that are out there and TBH I don’t get down and dirty much these days to actually try out this practically - I could ask one of the chaps to do this if they have some spare time, but time is a rare commodity these days let alone spare time!

 

I know that on the Cisco 2xxx routers this will work and that they will do the translation between LAN and WAN and maintain it at a performance level that is very acceptable but home routers are generally specified to handle one subnet of 254 hosts and when you get anywhere near that limit they start to struggle - expecting them to manage a Class B would be too much for many.

 

The problem is that you cannot simply change the subnet on the switch, it will also need to be changed on your router and in the DHCP hosts table to ensure that all hosts receive the new subnet otherwise they won’t be able to speak to each other - you would also need to change all static addresses to the same mask to ensure they are on the correct subnet - mixing masks can cause all sorts of issues.

 

I suggest that you remain where you are and stick with a single full class C subnet of 255.255.255.0 which as we know works

[melmerby]

Keith,

 

Theoretically yes, but it may need a route defined between the address ranges and almost certainly will need one to ensure that NAT works correctly to the outside world of the internet.

 

The challenge is I don’t know the myriad of routers that are out there and TBH I don’t get down and dirty much these days to actually try out this practically - I could ask one of the chaps to do this if they have some spare time, but time is a rare commodity these days let alone spare time!

 

I know that on the Cisco 2xxx routers this will work and that they will do the translation between LAN and WAN and maintain it at a performance level that is very acceptable but home routers are generally specified to handle one subnet of 254 hosts and when you get anywhere near that limit they start to struggle - expecting them to manage a Class B would be too much for many.

 

The problem is that you cannot simply change the subnet on the switch, it will also need to be changed on your router and in the DHCP hosts table to ensure that all hosts receive the new subnet otherwise they won’t be able to speak to each other - you would also need to change all static addresses to the same mask to ensure they are on the correct subnet - mixing masks can cause all sorts of issues.

 

I suggest that you remain where you are and stick with a single full class C subnet of 255.255.255.0 which as we know works

Thanks for a more full explanation.

 

As I said I don't really know much about networking and was wondering exactly what could be used.

The re-set 23151 is working fine with the other items so I won't be changing it anytime soon.

 

Cheers

 

keith