Tornado fails on ECML

[jjb1970]

For anybody interested in the transition from steam locomotives to diesel traction in the USA I strongly recommend this book:

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B001TH8XLG/ref=pdp_new_dp_review

 

The book is very readable and presents a convincing case. Churella is also writing the definitive history of the Pennsylvania RR, I have volume 1 and have been eagerly awaiting volume 2 for a few years.

[tigerburnie]

I had a suspicion that the very long intervals between oil changes on a modern car were just a ruse by the manufacturers in order to attract fleet buyers with lower maintenance costs, with the second or third owner down the line suffering the consequences long after the warranty ran out.

 

However, having religiously stuck to the manufacturers recommendations on my car, and having no discernible engine wear after 130,000 miles - The oil level hardly seems to drop between services, I am forming the opinion that the manufacturers and oil companies know what they are talking about and changing it more frequently is a waste of money and oil.

 

It depends on the engine and the work it does, modern petrol engines are less reliant on oil changes, but it depends on how hot the oil gets and for how long, a thrash down the motorway does more damage to the oil than pottering round the town. I changed the oil in my old V8 Aston every 3000 miles as I knew the bloke that drove it had a very heavy right foot.

[rodent279]

I'd have thought it would be the other way round, pottering around town will not let the oil get hot and do its work properly, a motorway run would allow it to do just that.

 

I was under the impression oil needs to be at the right temperature to work optimally.

[roythebus]

If you compare oil change frequencies on modern heavy road diesels, 100,000+ miles being claimed on a lot of new stuff compared with a bout 20,000 on car engines, it makes one wonder.

 

As for blocked oil pipes and the like, I had to change a foot valve on a Routemaster bus for a client in Amsterdam a few years ago; took a rebuilt unit with me, changed it and noticed the hydraulic pies badly worn, so got the client to get a new set made locally. Fitted them bled the system and the foot valve exploded! Managed to get some parts to replace the damaged casting from someone I knew in Antwerp and fitted that. That too exploded. then checked the new pipes; the return pipe had had the end swaged over inside so wouldn't pass anything, let alone hydraulic oil at 12,000 psi and building up to whatever the pump would give! And, on a different bus, rebuilt an engine, had the crank ground by a well known company. Fitted it all, it had very low oil pressure. It turns out the crankshaft journals were completely blocked with accumulated sludge and nobody had thought to check.

 

So lessons learnt all round.

 

To add to what rodent279 says,engine oil does work better when it's hot; it reaches its optimum working temperature, sludge breaks down at higher temperatures and hopefully gets filtered out as the oil is more fluid.

Edited April 20, 2018 by roythebus

[rodent279]

It's very often simple piffling things that cause the biggest problems!

[chris p bacon]

I'd have thought it would be the other way round, pottering around town will not let the oil get hot and do its work properly, a motorway run would allow it to do just that.

 

I was under the impression oil needs to be at the right temperature to work optimally.

 

 

It used to be the case that oils would 'emulsify' if used at low temps and a decent run where it got hot would get rid of the moisture content.

 

Or it could be I was told b*llocks

[rockershovel]

Within America there were vast differences, when Ford  /GM etc started making aircraft for WW2, they couldn't believe how big the tolerances were, needing as you say a hand made approach. The Car manufacturers soon sorted that in order to mass produce aircraft.

Oddly enough, Harley-Davidson continued building effectively hand-built motorcycles requiring a lot of individual reaming, lapping and fettling, well into the 1950s. Even getting the same parts back into the original engine can be a challenge at times.

[TheQ]

It is the case that on the Norfolk Broads Motor boats, particularly private ones that don't do a lot of miles, it's more important to change the oil regularly due to the amount of water the oil absorbs. the engines when they are run are often run for a few hours at very few revs (the speed limit is only 6MPH at most).

 

(The Diesel also absorbs water and then you get diesel bug unless you've added a chemical to stop it..) I ran my diesel from the tank through a special water seperator and took over two gallons out. These days that system is run more often...

 

Mean time one of the problems I think (and this may have been stated before) is that preserved and new build locomotives that are mainline cleared are having to be run continuousley at speeds that they were never designed for. Yes there were a few Locos that would be run at such speeds, but more often in their lives they'd be stopping or slowing frequently..

[PhilH]

 

Mean time one of the problems I think (and this may have been stated before) is that preserved and new build locomotives that are mainline cleared are having to be run continuousley at speeds that they were never designed for. Yes there were a few Locos that would be run at such speeds, but more often in their lives they'd be stopping or slowing frequently..

I've scratched my head over quite a few of the posts in this thread, this is certainly one of them. So Clan Line, for instance, is being run at speeds (75mph) which it was never designed for....seriously?

Edited April 20, 2018 by PhilH

[Jol Wilkinson]

It used to be the case that oils would 'emulsify' if used at low temps and a decent run where it got hot would get rid of the moisture content.

 

Or it could be I was told b*llocks

It was very much the case, added to the fact that car engine design in the 60's and 70's had poor crankcase vent systems. It wasn't uncommon for Ford Mk1 1200 engines to  "wear out"  at low mileages at little over 12 months old if used on short journeys. Oil usage could also be through leaks, an MGB that doesn't drip oil somewhere is generally considered to have simply run out of oil (a common view on the MGOC forum).

 

Modern design, oil and metal technology have created tremendous improvements but I wonder how much that could have been applied to Tornado's design. Presumably steam loco technology hasn't been developed at the same rate as for cars.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Jol Wilkinson

[rodent279]

It was very much the case, added to the fact that car engine design in the 60's and 70's had poor crankcase vent systems. It wasn't uncommon for Ford Mk1 1200 engines to "wear out" at low mileages at little over 12 months old if used on short journeys. Oil usage could also be through leaks, an MGB that doesn't drip oil somewhere is generally considered to have imply run out of oil (a common view on the MGOC forum).

 

Modern design, oil and metal technology have created tremendous improvements but I wonder how much that could have been applied to Tornado's design. Presumably steam loco technology hasn't been developed at the same rate as for cars.

Ha! When someone points out that my Minor has dropped a bit of oil on the floor, I just reply "good, I know there's some oil in there then!"

[TheQ]

Land Rovers Don't Leak oil, they Just Mark their Territory...

 

If you look at the speeds of trains back in the 1940s (and actually designed in the late 30s) (ignoring the even tighter wartime restrictions)  the average speed of trains was much less than they are now.

Yes they were put on Expresses and run occasionally at those speeds. But most of their lives been spent at much lower speeds. Just look at timings on trains, particularly once you go up the hills, speed came down a lot.

Today if you are out on the main line you are expected to get out on the line and get up to sustained higher speeds, so as to not block the line for sheduled services. There are no local stoppers, 25mph freight trains, ( I know they were supposed to clear the way) and a lot less junctions and track with speed restrictions. Today continuous Hgh speed running is required more often..

[Titan]

It depends on the engine and the work it does, modern petrol engines are less reliant on oil changes, but it depends on how hot the oil gets and for how long, a thrash down the motorway does more damage to the oil than pottering round the town. I changed the oil in my old V8 Aston every 3000 miles as I knew the bloke that drove it had a very heavy right foot.

 

For reference, my car is diesel, does mostly motorway miles, some of which towing either steam boat, caravan, or trailer, and whilst I don't exceed speed limits or the design limits of the engine, I don't exactly spare the horses either...

[Wickham Green]

Presumably steam loco technology hasn't been developed at the same rate as for cars.

........ that's why they're still steam locos and not diesel or electric ................. though Mr.Bulleid had ideas of using aero engine technology for the Leader's sleeve valves ; which brings us neatly back to the topic of lubrication problems !

[Oldddudders]

If you look at the speeds of trains back in the 1940s (and actually designed in the late 30s) (ignoring the even tighter wartime restrictions)  the average speed of trains was much less than they are now.

Yes they were put on Expresses and run occasionally at those speeds. But most of their lives been spent at much lower speeds. Just look at timings on trains, particularly once you go up the hills, speed came down a lot.

Today if you are out on the main line you are expected to get out on the line and get up to sustained higher speeds, so as to not block the line for sheduled services. There are no local stoppers, 25mph freight trains, ( I know they were supposed to clear the way) and a lot less junctions and track with speed restrictions. Today continuous Hgh speed running is required more often..

But the locos that typically run on NR main lines were designed for just such routes in their heyday. Waterloo to Bournemouth in 2 hours? Waterloo fast to Salisbury? Victoria fast to Dover with the Night Ferry or any other boat-train? And those are just the ones I know about south of the river. Was it 1903 when “Holyrood” ran the 50 miles from Vic to Brighton in under 49 minutes, touching 90 near Horley? We all love the idyll of branchlines and byways through sleepy countryside, but then, just as now, main line timings mattered and schedules did not permit of sparing the horses.

[Edwin_m]

But the locos that typically run on NR main lines were designed for just such routes in their heyday. Waterloo to Bournemouth in 2 hours? Waterloo fast to Salisbury? Victoria fast to Dover with the Night Ferry or any other boat-train? And those are just the ones I know about south of the river. Was it 1903 when “Holyrood” ran the 50 miles from Vic to Brighton in under 49 minutes, touching 90 near Horley? We all love the idyll of branchlines and byways through sleepy countryside, but then, just as now, main line timings mattered and schedules did not permit of sparing the horses.

 

And we're considering Tornado here, built largely to the design of a class that hauled expresses on the ECML - probably the longest continuous fast runs on the network in the steam era. 

[DavidB]

But the locos that typically run on NR main lines were designed for just such routes in their heyday.

The effortless way that 5043 ran most of the way from Bristol to Paddington at a steady 78-80mph with the one-off recreation of the Up Bristolian proved Ian's point to me in style.  After arrival at Paddington, Tyseley's Bob Meanley noted that the remarkably low consumption of coal and water showed this was a loco on top form doing exactly what it was designed to do.  My only regret was that the Earl couldn't be fully unleashed on the day to recreate the high speeds it became famous for on The Bristolian back in the 1950s.  It was clearly capable of going a great deal faster, although Bob Meanley has interestingly been very clear about his own lack of enthusiasm for higher permitted speeds for steam.  

 

David

[tigerburnie]

9f's were being driven on express passenger services on the Great Central at speeds in excess of 70 miles an hour and some of the other locos were known to go faster, so I'm sure there were others. I hope that the Tornado failure is/was something relatively straight foreword so it can continue it's higher speeds runs. 

[rockershovel]

One thing which does intrigue me in all this, are the remarks about 9Fs which would do 90mph, but not more than once.

 

Why IS this? Does the general “pushing the envelope” result in accelerated, or localised wear? Does this cause such wear, that the loco remains in service but is “never the same again” ( bearing in mind that most Standard locos had very short working lives and didn’t go through the cycles of rebuilding and “heavy repair” that a pre-War loco would have undergone)?

 

I’ve had long experience of motorcycle racing, these days I mostly look after my sons’ engines and ride occasionally in vintage and veterans, and it’s well known that older Racing engines are rebuilt, take a little while to settle in, then pass through a (usually quite brief) “sweet spot” when they are at their best. They CAN be kept in service longer, but are past their peak - it depends who is going to ride them, and where...

Edited April 20, 2018 by rockershovel

[Bon Accord]

One thing which does intrigue me in all this, are the remarks about 9Fs which would do 90mph, but not more than once.

 

Why IS this? Does the general “pushing the envelope” result in accelerated, or localised wear? Does this cause such wear, that the loco remains in service but is “never the same again” ( bearing in mind that most Standard locos had very short working lives and didn’t go through the cycles of rebuilding and “heavy repair” that a pre-War loco would have undergone)?

 

I’ve had long experience of motorcycle racing, these days I mostly look after my sons’ engines and ride occasionally in vintage and veterans, and it’s well known that older Racing engines are rebuilt, take a little while to settle in, then pass through a (usually quite brief) “sweet spot” when they are at their best. They CAN be kept in service longer, but are past their peak - it depends who is going to ride them, and where...

 

The problem with the 9Fs was not that they weren't capable of high speeds, but serious concerns about the consequences should a problem arise with the valve gear - remember they had much smaller driving wheels than a mixed traffic or passenger loco.

[jamie92208]

The problem with the 9Fs was not that they weren't capable of high speeds, but serious concerns about the consequences should a problem arise with the valve gear - remember they had much smaller driving wheels than a mixed traffic or passenger loco.

 

I seem to remember reading that they were very concerned at the piston speeds with IIRC 8 revs per second.   

 

Jamie

[Oldddudders]

I seem to remember reading that they were very concerned at the piston speeds with IIRC 8 revs per second.   

 

Jamie

Locos with 5’ drivers certainly do not deserve to be thrashed like that. It’s like the difference between the Derby and the Grand National - a horse bred for one will likely fail completely at the other.

[roythebus]

I seem to remember reading that when Tornado was being designed and built several modifications were made both to the spec of metals used but machining techniques and other improvements to improve reliability and performance.

 

I would suggest that every replica loco built differs from the original spec in more than one way given up to date knowledge and technology.

[rodent279]

I seem to remember reading that they were very concerned at the piston speeds with IIRC 8 revs per second.

 

Jamie

8 revs/sec is 480rpm, which does not sound much compared to the 4300rpm even my 50 yr old Morris Minor, with an engine whose design dates back not far off 75 yrs, can sustain pretty much indefinitely. But the rotating and reciprocating masses, and therefore the forces they impose, are much greater, so I can well imagine there would have been concerns over regular running at 70mph+. I'd imagine 9F's weren't really built for much more than 50-60mph in regular service. Edited April 20, 2018 by rodent279

[newbryford]

I seem to remember reading that when Tornado was being designed and built several modifications were made both to the spec of metals used but machining techniques and other improvements to improve reliability and performance.

 

I would suggest that every replica loco built differs from the original spec in more than one way given up to date knowledge and technology.

 

I believe it was built to take account of materials in metric dimensions rather than imperial.

 

Cheers,

Mick