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Tornado fails on ECML




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#251 rodent279

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 21:48

I seem to remember reading that they were very concerned at the piston speeds with IIRC 8 revs per second.

Jamie

8 revs/sec is 480rpm, which does not sound much compared to the 4300rpm even my 50 yr old Morris Minor, with an engine whose design dates back not far off 75 yrs, can sustain pretty much indefinitely. But the rotating and reciprocating masses, and therefore the forces they impose, are much greater, so I can well imagine there would have been concerns over regular running at 70mph+. I'd imagine 9F's weren't really built for much more than 50-60mph in regular service.

Edited by rodent279, 20 April 2018 - 22:22 .

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#252 newbryford

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 21:49

I seem to remember reading that when Tornado was being designed and built several modifications were made both to the spec of metals used but machining techniques and other improvements to improve reliability and performance.

 

I would suggest that every replica loco built differs from the original spec in more than one way given up to date knowledge and technology.

 

I believe it was built to take account of materials in metric dimensions rather than imperial.

 

Cheers,

Mick



#253 Bon Accord

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 22:39

I seem to remember reading that they were very concerned at the piston speeds with IIRC 8 revs per second.   

 

Jamie

 

I've fired a PKP Kriegslok (they have slightly smaller drivers than a 9F) and even at  circa 40 mph watching the motion was somewhat unnerving with a constant loud continuous rattle with the odd loud thump coming from gear we knew was somewhat tired in places, not particularly good riding either. I wouldn't fancy being in the cab of a 9F for a speed double that, although granted it was probably quite impressive from the lineside.


Edited by Bon Accord, 20 April 2018 - 22:40 .

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#254 jim.snowdon

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Posted 20 April 2018 - 23:32

I seem to remember reading that they were very concerned at the piston speeds with IIRC 8 revs per second.   

 

Jamie

It should be remembered that even in 1960, there would have been rather less knowledge than would be the case today in regard to the actual forces being imposed on various parts of the motion by the reciprocating motion to which they are subjected. Whereas these days the stresses in every element of the locomotive can be modelled in considerable detail, the designers back then had to rely a lot more on experience of what worked and what didn't. Pushing a freight locomotive to 90 mph would have been pushing the limits of the conservatism that is an essential part of engineering design when you don't know all the variables.

 

Jim


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#255 jamie92208

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Posted Yesterday, 05:52

It should be remembered that even in 1960, there would have been rather less knowledge than would be the case today in regard to the actual forces being imposed on various parts of the motion by the reciprocating motion to which they are subjected. Whereas these days the stresses in every element of the locomotive can be modelled in considerable detail, the designers back then had to rely a lot more on experience of what worked and what didn't. Pushing a freight locomotive to 90 mph would have been pushing the limits of the conservatism that is an essential part of engineering design when you don't know all the variables.

 

Jim

 

The interesting thing to me is how many well documented examples of really fast running by the 9F's there are.   The famous ones IIRC were when Canton put 9F's out on the Red Dragon to London and it kept time but 'management' found out after 2 days and stopped it.   Another is I think in Gerry Fiennes book, I tried to run a railway, where he was in the brake van of an unfitted freight doing 90 down Stoke Bank.   There's another that involved a passenger train on the G & S W's Nith Valley route where a sports car paced the train at high speed and discovered that it was being pulled by large black freight loco with 10 driving wheels.   What's obvious is that the locos were very free running and that drivers exploited that ability when given the chance.   However the thought of the damage that all those tons of reciprocating masses could do, if they got loose, is frightening.  When Union Pacific moved the Big Boy, 1200 miles from LA to Cheyenne recently, they very deliberately removed the pistons but kept the rest of the valve gear on to retain the balance of reciprocating masses, though they limited it to 25 mph.

 

Jamie


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#256 Dr Gerbil-Fritters

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Posted Yesterday, 08:57

Right, that's enough thread drift and idle speculation from the armchair engineers....

 

Here's an official statement from the A1 steam locomotive trust from 22:11 last night.

 

K-559-extract-for-inside-valve-gear.jpg

 

There's also an earlier statement from the 17th.


Edited by Dr Gerbil-Fritters, Yesterday, 08:59 .

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#257 jim.snowdon

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Posted Yesterday, 09:24

Right, that's enough thread drift and idle speculation from the armchair engineers....

 

Here's an official statement from the A1 steam locomotive trust from 22:11 last night.

 

attachicon.gifK-559-extract-for-inside-valve-gear.jpg

 

There's also an earlier statement from the 17th.

Quite right, and thanks for posting the update from the owners.

 

Jim


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#258 Mallard60022

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Posted Yesterday, 10:12

Right, that's enough thread drift and idle speculation from the armchair engineers....

 

Here's an official statement from the A1 steam locomotive trust from 22:11 last night.

 

attachicon.gifK-559-extract-for-inside-valve-gear.jpg

 

There's also an earlier statement from the 17th.

Excellent explanation from those that actually know what's what. I know that there could be £19,900 left to cover the costs of parts so I do hope that anyone that has the resources will put their money where there arm rests are and cough up to support one of the best engineering projects I have ever been involved in. Oh how I wish I was years younger and had the skills to be involved in helping with something like this (other than financially).

Thanks Fritters. It would be great if this thread now just ticks over until the repairs are under way and maybe relevant updates, including some pictures, could be placed here. I'd hope to see Tornado back in service by the summer, however I believe she would be better running prestige trains at good, mile a minute schedules. I also believe that more runs to and from main line linked heritage lines followed by guest weekends would be a great way forward. Also, Scotsman ambling thgrough the countryside from the X to Scarborough on Thursday, shows that interesting routes with some faster running is a great way to travel. Good, old fashioned railway journeys.

I am going to be controversial and suggest that maybe going for it on the ECML was not such a great idea in hindsight although yes, it could have happened at any speed as the Trust say. Personally I believe traction performances over tough routes (eg, Settle, Copy Pit) and scenic tours should be the norm and maybe one or two outings on the fast mains as in the past just to let the machine stretch its' wheels. Circuit routes might also be fun? 

Thank you A1 Trust for keeping us informed and I agree with your sentiments Dr.

Phil 


Edited by Mallard60022, Yesterday, 10:12 .

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#259 TheSignalEngineer

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Posted Yesterday, 12:29

Wandering off topic slightly, not just a steam problem. Today there is a charter from Newport to Scarborough which I believe was booked for a 47. It caused mayhem to timetables in the West Midlands by spending 3 hours on Old Hill bank. No details of cause known to me at the moment.
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#260 TheSignalEngineer

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Posted Yesterday, 16:33

Wandering off topic slightly, not just a steam problem. Today there is a charter from Newport to Scarborough which I believe was booked for a 47. It caused mayhem to timetables in the West Midlands by spending 3 hours on Old Hill bank. No details of cause known to me at the moment.

47749 according to Sulzerpower

Edit 66518 rescued.
66778 took over at Derby.
Train terminated at York.

Edited by TheSignalEngineer, Yesterday, 17:40 .

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#261 The Johnster

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Posted Yesterday, 18:52

Stink Bomb, Johnster. Smoke Bomb might not have been noticed........  :locomotive:

 

Fair comment, but with some of the drivers I worked with a stink bomb might have got beneath the radar as well...


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#262 Oldddudders

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Posted Yesterday, 19:11

Wandering off topic slightly, not just a steam problem. Today there is a charter from Newport to Scarborough which I believe was booked for a 47. It caused mayhem to timetables in the West Midlands by spending 3 hours on Old Hill bank. No details of cause known to me at the moment.

 

Why are we surprised? The Brush Type 4 was considerably older than Tornado.


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#263 TheSignalEngineer

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Posted Yesterday, 19:39

Why are we surprised? The Brush Type 4 was considerably older than Tornado.

And they didn't get their nickname for nothing.
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#264 TEDDYBEAR D9521

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Posted Yesterday, 19:58

47749 according to Sulzerpower

Edit 66518 rescued.
66778 took over at Derby.
Train terminated at York.

66778 on return working from York with 47749 DIT  


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