Hattons decoder problem

[MarkK]

I have just installed a Hattons 8-pin decoder into a Bachmann 4575 class.  Nothing complicated, just plug and play.  The loco runs perfectly on DC and I ran it in for at least one hour in each direction at a moderate speed.  However, after to switching to DC the loco wants to make 3 or 4 quarter wheel turns and then stops dead.  If I am lucky it may travel a short distance every now and again.  This behavior is consistent both on track and a separate rolling road.  

 

Just a little more background info - I am using a Hornby E-link controller via Railmaster.  I have another loco with a Hornby chip that runs without fault under the same control.

 

Does anyone have any ideas, because I am just about ready to bounce it off the wall !

 

Mark

 

 

 

[Ray H]

Can you temporarily swap the decoders over?

 

Does the 4575 loco still have the capacitors used for DC operation fitted?

[MarkK]

Hi

 

Thanks for the reply. The other loco is hard wired unfortunately and I don’t have a spare to substitute.

 

It does have the caps in place. Do you think they might be the issue ?

[Ray H]

The capacitors were definitely an issue with a loco that I recently fitted a decoder too.

 

My understanding is that the capacitors are unnecessary with DCC control.

[MarkK]

Thanks Ray

[MarkK]

Looks like it’s the e-link that’s not playing ball.

[RAF96]

If other locos run well under RM and eLink control then thts unlikely to be the root of the problem with the dodgy decoder.

You should try reading all the CVs and see what they are set at, particularly CV10 back emf. Try turning it off.

Rob

[MarkK]

If other locos run well under RM and eLink control then thts unlikely to be the root of the problem with the dodgy decoder.

You should try reading all the CVs and see what they are set at, particularly CV10 back emf. Try turning it off.

Rob

Hi Rob

 

I have been through all of the CVs.  I installed another Hattons decoder into a 1F and the performance was marginally better.  I contacted Hattons regarding the issue and they advised it was the e-link and in a nut shell its only good for Hornby decoders.  To be honest, if I am going to carry on down the DCC route  I am going to have to get a decent controller such as the powercab etc.  The unreliability is such a frustration.

 

Mark

[RAF96]

If you go into CV7 in RM and double click it will give you a drop down of all the decoders RM supports.

As an aside, If RM miss-reads the chip ID you can force it to list the correct decoder by picking it from this list.

 

None of that affects how it runs the chip of course, which can require some fiddling with CVs, although I have run Lenz, ZTC and Ulhenbrock decoders with the eLink no problem.

 

I have no experience of Laisdcc or Hattons or GM chips, although I did query Hattons once years ago about something of theirs DCC related and they refused to supply any further info for it but rather blamed the Hornby kit instead, so not the first time I have heard of them ‘passing the buck’ as it were. Normally they are very helpful.

 

Edit: be aware that if going for a different make controller then you will have to ditch RM as it only works with Hornby kit until someone cracks how to do it with other kit.

 

Rob

Edited April 20, 2018 by RAFHAAA96

[MarkK]

Morning Rob.

 

I may be ditching DCC for DC. What’s really annoying is, a few years ago a built and programmed my own decoder which didn’t take a signal from the track but instead via radio control. It performed so well, it’s only downside was it’s size for 00. It would go into a class 25 no problem, but the small tanks I wanted to run was a no go. It would have suited a garden railway with at least a 50m radio range.

 

I dug my old HM 2000 out of the garage last night. I hardly used it as I thought DCC was the dogs bits and shelved it. I ran my new Bachmann 4575 class with it and got better performance at low speed that with the decoders I’m using. I have an 8x2 layout and will never run more than two locos at any one time, and I’m not interested in sound, so I may stick with DC if all my other locos perform as well. I don’t run any old locos so I shouldn’t have a problem.

 

And you are correct when you say Hattons are usually very good. However, there have been a couple of occasions recently, this one included, where I would have to question the knowledgeability of some staff.

 

Mark

[Phil S]

Personally I would avoid using the old H&M controller for ANY DCC-FITTED loco as the off-load voltage for the '12V' output might peak at about 28V, and repeat that at 100x a second (unsmoothed full wave rectification).   This can lead to locos running in only one direction on analogue, for example.

 

There are some (coreless) motors installed in recent products - including small tanks especially - that do not recommend beoing used on such dinosaurs as the H&M 'pre electronic' or early pulse-width/feedback controllers.

 

Any modern controller used in conjunction with a modern Switched Mode Power Supply (as now an energy saving requirement in the EC)  would be a suitable controller instead.

[MarkK]

Hi

 

Are you referring to the HM2000 or the early H&M?

 

The HM2000 I have was purchased circa 2007.

 

Edit

 

Just re-read your post. I’m not running DCC fitted locos on DC. I have converted them back to DC.

Edited April 20, 2018 by MarkK

[Matabiau]

I have just installed some Hattons 6-pin decoders to the new Hattons P class tank locos. They run fine on default settings, address 3, but when I try to reprogram them to another address they no longer respond. I am using a Hornby Elite controller. I am able to reset the chip by commanding 8 to CV8 and recover control using address 3.

Having spoken to Hattons apparently none of their decoders are compatible with Hornby controllers (not mentioned on their website). This I find hard to believe as I have been using Hattons 8 pin and 21 pin decoders for some time without any problem. In addition, as others have said here, Hattons claim that Hornby controllers only work with Hornby decoders, again somehting I find hard to believe as I have had no problem with Bachmann decoders, Lenz decoders and a myriad of other decoders from various manufacturers. Why are Hattons suggesting the problem is with Hornby and not with one of their models of decoder?

Does anyone have any workaround methods using the CVs to change the address using a Hornby Elite?

[JST]

I have just installed some Hattons 6-pin decoders to the new Hattons P class tank locos. They run fine on default settings, address 3, but when I try to reprogram them to another address they no longer respond. I am using a Hornby Elite controller. I am able to reset the chip by commanding 8 to CV8 and recover control using address 3.

Having spoken to Hattons apparently none of their decoders are compatible with Hornby controllers (not mentioned on their website). This I find hard to believe as I have been using Hattons 8 pin and 21 pin decoders for some time without any problem. In addition, as others have said here, Hattons claim that Hornby controllers only work with Hornby decoders, again somehting I find hard to believe as I have had no problem with Bachmann decoders, Lenz decoders and a myriad of other decoders from various manufacturers. Why are Hattons suggesting the problem is with Hornby and not with one of their models of decoder?

Does anyone have any workaround methods using the CVs to change the address using a Hornby Elite?

 

That's odd. I run my layout with Railmaster through a Hornby Elite and have several Hattons decoders.... no problem! I thought that Hattons didn't actually make decoders but badged other manufacturers as their own... I may, of course, been mislead on this.

[Matabiau]

That's odd. I run my layout with Railmaster through a Hornby Elite and have several Hattons decoders.... no problem! I thought that Hattons didn't actually make decoders but badged other manufacturers as their own... I may, of course, been mislead on this.

 

 

The guy at Hattons was adamant that the Hornby Elite was at fault and only worked with Hornby decoders. I always understood that the elite was one of the better lower end controllers and was the nearest thing to NMRA compliant. I have never had any problems with other decoders in the past, even the Hattons branded ones.

 

I shall have to dig out my old Bachmann controller!

[JST]

The guy at Hattons was adamant that the Hornby Elite was at fault and only worked with Hornby decoders. I always understood that the elite was one of the better lower end controllers and was the nearest thing to NMRA compliant. I have never had any problems with other decoders in the past, even the Hattons branded ones.

 

I shall have to dig out my old Bachmann controller!

 

Bizarre that they should say that. I have Hattons, Bachman, Gaugemaster, Hornby and Digitrax decoders running through my Elite with no issues at all.

[RFS]

The guy at Hattons was adamant that the Hornby Elite was at fault and only worked with Hornby decoders. 

 

It's the Hornby Select that has this problem not the Elite. 

[Matabiau]

It's the Hornby Select that has this problem not the Elite. 

 

That's what I had understood too having read this forum for the past few years. However, the guy from Hattons was dismissive of all Hornby controllers. It seems even more bizarre that Hattons don't mention this on their website as I suspect the Hornby Elite accounts for a large proportion of their DCC customers controllers, they even fit their own decoders by default as part of their DCC installation service. There is no mention that the resulting loco would be incompatible with many peoples layouts.

 

Just to add, I have managed to program both P class locos with Hattons 6 pin decoders using my old Bachmann EZ Command controller (the infra-red one). Now both locos can be controlled by the Hornby Elite with the new addresses. Hardly satisfactory, but a resolution all the same.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Matabiau

[MarkK]

That's what I had understood too having read this forum for the past few years. However, the guy from Hattons was dismissive of all Hornby controllers. It seems even more bizarre that Hattons don't mention this on their website as I suspect the Hornby Elite accounts for a large proportion of their DCC customers controllers, they even fit their own decoders by default as part of their DCC installation service. There is no mention that the resulting loco would be incompatible with many peoples layouts.

 

Just to add, I have managed to program both P class locos with Hattons 6 pin decoders using my old Bachmann EZ Command controller (the infra-red one). Now both locos can be controlled by the Hornby Elite with the new addresses. Hardly satisfactory, but a resolution all the same.

I brought two Hatton's decoders for two different locos and had running issues with both.  Hatton's also stated that the Hornby Railmaster was the fault and that their decoders were not compatible. 

[charliepetty]

That's what I had understood too having read this forum for the past few years. However, the guy from Hattons was dismissive of all Hornby controllers. It seems even more bizarre that Hattons don't mention this on their website as I suspect the Hornby Elite accounts for a large proportion of their DCC customers controllers, they even fit their own decoders by default as part of their DCC installation service. There is no mention that the resulting loco would be incompatible with many peoples layouts.

 

Just to add, I have managed to program both P class locos with Hattons 6 pin decoders using my old Bachmann EZ Command controller (the infra-red one). Now both locos can be controlled by the Hornby Elite with the new addresses. Hardly satisfactory, but a resolution all the same.

Sadly we also experience issues all the time with Hornby Controllers, especially Elite.    So Hattons are not telling porkies!!!    Charlie

[RAF96]

Odd that if Hornby kit is so ‘bad’ that Hattons are happy to keep flogging it.

 

I would like to see a detailed list of exactly what problems people are having with their Hornby kit versus whatever it is that won’t work with it.

 

Ref post #13 I have found that if a decoder is refusing to readdress on the programming track, switch the Elite to Operations Mode and use POM to change CV1 directly, taking care either not to have anything else on track including accessory decoders or better still temporarily swap the programming track to the main track terminals for this exercise. You can’t use this method with the Select as it cannot write to particular CVs directly and the eLink does not support POM through Railmaster.

Rob

[MarkK]

I found that Hatton's decoders were unsatisfactory with both Railmaster via Elink and Hornby select.  However, Hornby's basic decoder ran without issue on either of the above.  I was able to adjust what CV's were available but the running was shocking.

 

I should point out that all locomotives were Bachmann and factory fitted suppression caps etc were left in place.  They weren't removed as I found this didn't make any difference in the past. 

 

I was so fed up with the inconstancies that I am currently experimenting with home made DC control.

[outatime]

I've got the exact same problems with Hatton's 6-pin Decoders.

They behave as described in post #1. I have tried them in different locos, Hattons 14xx, Heljan 1366, Bachmann 64xx but the problems appear in all these locos.

It seems as if these decoders are very (over-)sensitive to slightly dirty wheels and track. Even after cleaning, the locos suddenly stop an accelerate again after some time.

 

I'm using a small white Roco z21 and also tried arduino-based DCC++ and JMRI Decoder Pro, same problems with both of them.

 

When i use ESU Lokpilot micro decoders, these locomotives run fine.

 

Regards,

Bjoern

[MarkK]

I've got the exact same problems with Hatton's 6-pin Decoders.

They behave as described in post #1. I have tried them in different locos, Hattons 14xx, Heljan 1366, Bachmann 64xx but the problems appear in all these locos.

It seems as if these decoders are very (over-)sensitive to slightly dirty wheels and track. Even after cleaning, the locos suddenly stop an accelerate again after some time.

 

I'm using a small white Roco z21 and also tried arduino-based DCC++ and JMRI Decoder Pro, same problems with both of them.

 

When i use ESU Lokpilot micro decoders, these locomotives run fine.

 

Regards,

Bjoern

 

 

I'm so glad its not just me, in the nicest possible way.  Sounds like its not all down to Hornby controllers either.

[RAF96]

I found that Hatton's decoders were unsatisfactory with both Railmaster via Elink and Hornby select. However, Hornby's basic decoder ran without issue on either of the above. I was able to adjust what CV's were available but the running was shocking.

 

I should point out that all locomotives were Bachmann and factory fitted suppression caps etc were left in place. They weren't removed as I found this didn't make any difference in the past.

Depends where the caps are in the circuit, if in the track circuit side of the decoder then the dcc signal can and usually will be affected, but if in the motor side of the decoder circuit then it should not affect anything.

 

There have been reported instances of poor control with B’mann locos even to the point of a decoder works OK in one chassis but the same decoder plays up in a different chassis, the MEPV being a prime example of not suiting a Hornby decoder.

 

There are also records of controllers such as Lenz and MRC/GM not liking certain decoders and there are also records of some fortunate people never having any problems with any of their kit no matter how they mix and match makes.

 

Rob

Edit for typos

Edited May 19, 2018 by RAFHAAA96