21st Century France

[Fat Controller]

Other areas where TGVs can be seen in close proximity to 'normal' freight and passenger trains include:-

The line skirting Lac du Bourget and the Chambery to Modane line, to the east of Lyon. This has freight traffic, conventional passenger services and TGVs through  to Italy. In the past, Italian high-speed sets have worked through to Lyon.

The route between Marseilles and Ventimiglia; again TGVs, running though to Nice, alongside TER and freight services.

The 'Traversale' from Bordeaux, via Toulouse to Narbonne

The line from the Spanish frontier at Port Bou/ Cerbere (http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/stations_cerbere.php) to Nimes via Beziers; TGVs running through to Spain, local services and very heavy freight traffic.

The first two could form the basis for very scenic models, the latter two less so.

[Peter Crawford]

TGVs do not use LGVs exclusively. Less than year ago the Le Mans avoiding LGV was opened, but until then all TGVs to Bretagne had come through LM, rubbing shoulders with all sorts of TERs, freight etc, and using ordinary railway all the way to Bretagne. Both single and duplex TGVs use the route. And loco-hauled sets still run the bulk of the TER trains from LM to Montparnasse. Superb riding qualities. 

 

Funny you should mention Bretagne and the 'Gare du Mans', I was in Rennes a couple of weeks ago. What luck!

 

Other areas where TGVs can be seen in close proximity to 'normal' freight and passenger trains include:-

The line skirting Lac du Bourget and the Chambery to Modane line, to the east of Lyon. This has freight traffic, conventional passenger services and TGVs through  to Italy. In the past, Italian high-speed sets have worked through to Lyon.

The route between Marseilles and Ventimiglia; again TGVs, running though to Nice, alongside TER and freight services.

The 'Traversale' from Bordeaux, via Toulouse to Narbonne

The line from the Spanish frontier at Port Bou/ Cerbere (http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/stations_cerbere.php) to Nimes via Beziers; TGVs running through to Spain, local services and very heavy freight traffic.

The first two could form the basis for very scenic models, the latter two less so.

 

I've actually taken the Lac du Bourget line twice, as well as the Challes-Les-Eaux - Pont-de-Beauvoisin - Part-Dieu line. It's true!

I would probably avoid modelling the current St. Charles- Nice Ville line if I were to model a line like that, in favour of the LGV PACA or the 'LIGNE NOUVELLE PROVENCE-CÔTE D’AZUR'

\https://www.sncf-reseau.fr/fr/projets-chantiers-ferroviaires/france-europe/ligne-nouvelle-provence-cote-azur

But that has given me an idea, thanks!

[Andy Hayter]

As others have suggested you hardly need an excuse to run TGVs and Intercities together.

 

Most Paris termini handle both types of train.  Many cities and large towns will have both.  Down here there are TGV services into Valence Ville station - even though Valence has its own TGV station in the outskirts.  The town centre station has trains that pick up from the intermediate cities between Avignon and Valence (the two adjacent cities on the LGV network)

[Oldddudders]

As others have suggested you hardly need an excuse to run TGVs and Intercities together.

 

Most Paris termini handle both types of train.  Many cities and large towns will have both.  Down here there are TGV services into Valence Ville station - even though Valence has its own TGV station in the outskirts.  The town centre station has trains that pick up from the intermediate cities between Avignon and Valence (the two adjacent cities on the LGV network)

 

Including Calais! TGVs from Paris call on the LGV at Frethun and then go round to Calais Ville, I think. I once had reason to catch one, but only to Frethun. 

[Peter Crawford]

I've toyed with the idea of a fictitious layout with the (imagining it in plan view):

They are not listed in any particular order.

• A 6-platform (4 through, 2 bay) station on the right-hand side (8ft Approx.), with it being covered over in the top right-hand corner. Accompanying trailing crossover for bay plat. access.
•  
• Carriage loops/sidings OR wagon sidings [i haven't decided yet- suggestions welcome!] at the bottom of the plan. With facing and trailing crossovers to access sidings/loops.
•  
• A 'halt station" with a long loop platform for the outside loop (clockwise), a fast loop, and a platform on the anti-clockwise 'mainline'. The loop platform is used for terminating TGVs for the junction (read on for full explanation). This shares the left-hand (trailing) crossover for the Carriage loops/wagon sidings. On the left-hand side.
•  
• An 8+ track depot ['Technicentre'] as a scenic fiddle yard (dead-end sidings, which are accessed without reversing [i.e. facing] from the clockwise direction). Accompanying facing crossover for access. This is on the top of the layout. Longest siding probably around 6/7ft.
•  
• A junction where a two-track line diverges from the modelled 'mainline' circuit. This is a facing junction for trains running anticlockwise. This will lead to a purely scenic extension of a few feet which will include a nominal fiddle yard of 4ft.
•  

 

 

Several scenic ideas:

 

A heavily re-modelled Toulon, where a new re-alignment to enable 220km/h running on the Marseille-Nice line has been constructed. The scenic board would comprise of cliffs and the sea.

 

An iteration of Albertville, with a 'nouvelle ligne' to ease trans-alpine traffic and ski traffic has been built. Trains no longer need to reverse. A scenic depiction of the old 'ski line'

 

Thanks for the help, and I'd love to hear your opinions.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Peter Crawford

[Peter Crawford]

or Saint Raphael?

[Fat Controller]

or Saint Raphael?

St Raph. isn't one of the most scenic bits of the line along the Cote d'Azur; it's main claim to fame is the high number of fatalities amongst those heading from the various hotels and holiday camps to the beach. There are frequent underpasses below the line, but these are prone to flooding after the slightest rain.

[Peter Crawford]

I guess not, where would be the most scenic (with a station) on the:

 

A. Two TGV-served alpine lines (Bourg-Saint-Maurice and Modane)

B. The Nice line

 

Thanks for the help!

[Peter Crawford]

Just a quick thought: I am thinking of modelling Valence TGV, with the TER/Intercités line on top of the TGV lines. Unfortunately, two relatively important compromises are necessary:

 

1. The angle of the crossing between the LGV and the Ligne Classique requires some flattening (the angle is too sharp).

2. I can't model the full length of the station, only from one end up to the station building.

 

There's also a problem with the catenary as the Valence TGV catenary is quite unique:

 

Yes, the messy scribbles are intentional.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Peter Crawford

[Joseph_Pestell]

Other areas where TGVs can be seen in close proximity to 'normal' freight and passenger trains include:-

The line skirting Lac du Bourget and the Chambery to Modane line, to the east of Lyon. This has freight traffic, conventional passenger services and TGVs through  to Italy. In the past, Italian high-speed sets have worked through to Lyon.

The route between Marseilles and Ventimiglia; again TGVs, running though to Nice, alongside TER and freight services.

The 'Traversale' from Bordeaux, via Toulouse to Narbonne

The line from the Spanish frontier at Port Bou/ Cerbere (http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/stations_cerbere.php) to Nimes via Beziers; TGVs running through to Spain, local services and very heavy freight traffic.

The first two could form the basis for very scenic models, the latter two less so.

 

Depends what sort of scenery you like. The stretch of line south of Narbonne where it runs across the lagoons is quite magical. Does anyone make 1:160 flamingoes?

[Peter Crawford]

I don't think so...

 

But Preiser do this: https://www.preiser-figuren.de/preiser-20372-1:87-flamingos-preiser-20372,art-34317

[Pacific231G]

As orthers have said you don't need to model an LGV to have plenty of TGVs mixing it with oher trains. The Cote d'Azure does offer some particularly dramatic coastal senery and is unlikely to get an LGV anytime soon. You might also find the area around Dax quite interesting. The line between Bordeaux and Dax through the Grandes Landes de Gascogne (once a vast moorland now mostly pine forest) carries a very wide range of trafiic and is very busy as is the line from Dax down to Bayonnes and the Spanish border. There is even quite a lot of the very distinctive (and IMHO attractive) ex Midi 1500V DC "ogive" catenary still in use. I've not been down there for a couple of years and last time SNCF was strike bound (though some trains were running) but four years ago during a half hour or so break for a coffee at Morcenx  (the junction for the single track unelectrified line to Mont-de-Marsan).  I saw TGVs, Intercités, TERs (including some still operated with Corails and locomotives though I think that's now finished), heavy freight trains and even some local freight operated by VFLI  with their own distinctively liveried locos - (VFLI's small loco depot for the region is in Morcenx)  .

Another reasonably compact station where I've seen TGVs cheek by jowel with other types is Agen on the line from Bordeaux to Toulouse.

 

When you say twenty first century do you mean contemporary or earlier this century when far more trains were loco hauled and there was still rather more wagonload and freight generated by smaller private sidings than now? There have been significant changes over the past eighteen years but apart from a few new LGVs and one or two lines reopening to passengers they've tended to be a retrenchement that's made France's railways less rather than more visually varied. 

 

An obvious question but are you a member of the French Railways Society (formerly the SNCF Society)?  If not you would find it useful and if you're devoting a lot of time and effort to a single layout very useful indeed for the collective knowledge of its members if nothing else..

Edited May 8, 2018 by Pacific231G

[Peter Crawford]

No, I'm not a club member. I am simply a lone modeller and all my information comes from:

 

• Forums
• Wikipedia
• Photos available online
• Google Maps (Both 3D for rough visualisations and maps for track plans)
• Visits (occasionally) to France

 

A ligne 'normale' is probably the way forwards, especially if incorporating speeds of 160 km/h+. You will notice my choice of 'ligne normale' instead of 'ligne Classique'- this is intentional as:

 

I envisage a line similar to GPSO phase 2 (Dax to Spain), with 220kph operation and 160 km/h freight. The line, depuis Lyon takes a parallel route to the A43 up to Chambéry. The line then sweeps round into the Isère valley, heading towards Albertville, with a new underground station below the Olympic Stadium to eliminate the need to reverse. The trains then take a fully double-tracked and upgraded Chambéry - Bourg Saint Maurice line up to Aigueblanche, before entering a new tunnel with eased curves, emerging at Saint-Marcel (Due to gradients, goods trains still go via Moutiers). Trains now join a double-tracked Ligne Classique for the last 30/40kms into Bourg, where the new line continues to Aoste in Italy. From there, the line descends down towards Novare and eventually Milan, offering a new, faster transalpine route.

 

Along the route, the Gare d'Aime (with mountain railway to the ski resort Plagne 1800 seems to appeal to me.

[Mike Storey]

Not sure where you live, but for those of us that live in France, and use or see SNCF in action very regularly, there is a vast difference between what is operating now (and in the near future) compared to what was operating perhaps only 5 years ago.

 

If you want to be accurate then you will have to choose a specific year, or before a certain date. Many through TGV services on to classic lines have or will shortly disappear. Corail hauled services have almost been entirely replaced by DMU/EMU operations. Buses form the bulk of local services on many, many lines these days. Freight operation has reduced by well over 50% in the past 10 years (although some has been re-established by private operators). Many lines are under extreme threat of closure, due to SNCF's huge debt burden.

 

Your idea of a rosy, well managed, high frequency operation (outside the dedicated LGV network) that compares entirely favourably with the UK, is misplaced (even fares, where the cheapest available on OuiGo are now advanced purchase, just like the UK, which your fares comparison to Edinburgh failed to include), or at least very historic. That is not just my opinion, but over 65% of the French public, according to the most recent polls (pre-current strikes). It is your layout, so you model entirely what you want it to be, but I would earnestly suggest you leave the comparison of the real thing, as of recent years, aside.

 

More constructively, can I suggest possible alternatives for your mixed use station locations? For your "halt", perhaps Surgeres might fit the bill, where TGV's and (nearly disappeared) classic, and local TER's still mix, along with a small freight yard for cereals and previously cement (a fairly common combination elsewhere). Another possibility is Saintes, which never had TGV's,  but you could easily imagine it. It has a small train repair and track maintenance depot attached, if that warrants your attention. Alternatively for your larger station Carcassonne, in its earlier, larger form, which has 5 platforms, an overall roof, a small yard and the odd TGV, or Narbonne, with 5/6 platforms and bays, with its junction, but a huge yard.

[Peter Crawford]

In any group of hobbyists, there will inevitably be different opinions, so let us agree to disagree.

[Peter Crawford]

I've got some rough sketches on a sheet of A4, which I'll try to scan over.

[Peter Crawford]

Sadly the printer stopped working and then I went away for a long weekend, so no plans. However, I have decided to base the layout on Nîmes, but sunken into a cutting instead of on raised arches. I considered that the old building was destroyed (by fire?) around the time the area was regenerated and the neighbouring Ibis was built. Therefore, a new sunken station was constructed and the tracks more or less in a tunnel up to Saint Césaire. The station area will be open-air.

 

The primary services (adapted from the real ones) are:

 

TGVs from the north to sunny French towns and cities and Toulouse, OUIGO trains (if I can find a suitably liveried model) from CDG, Renfe AVEs (subject to availability/price), a direct London-Montpellier Eurostar, Nice-Marseille-Bordeaux Intercités (in real life, there isn't a Nice portion) and TERs serving the local area. I've also imagined that the sleepers haven't disappeared and an Austerlitz-Limoges-Toulouse-Montpellier-Avignon sleeper operates some nights, while the Paris-Nice sleeper has a portion to Montpellier/Spain. Maybe even the Gien-Clermont-Alès line has an Intercités...

[Focalplane]

Peter

 

I am late coming to the party, but would agree with all the advice you have been given thus far. If you need some pictorial guidance for southern France, where the variety of trains running on standard 160kph main line track can be extremely varied, have a look at my Sud de France topic. You will also see that catenary design is not standardized!

 

As others have noted, things are changing fast in France and if the strikes continue much longer then car sharing will take over much of the long distance services for younger people at least. Covoiturage is already being advertised on autoroutes.

 

When I lived near Beziers the Midi Main Line had a range of foreign trains as well, including old Talgos and Italian couchettas. Freight trains are important in this area as well, about 50% of traffic is freight, mostly at night and in the afternoons. TGVs are timetabled to please the EU, not the local communities. At one time I had to wait 52 minutes at Narbonne for the connectng local stopping train. Which rather negates the high speed concept!

 

Paul

[Peter Crawford]

Thanks for your info. I have seen lots of car shares, including SNCF-Sponsored IDCar...

[Fat Controller]

Thanks for your info. I have seen lots of car shares, including SNCF-Sponsored IDCar...

It's been strongly encouraged for commuting, to the extent that employers allow roster modifications to facilitate it. The downside for me is that instead of losing one member of a crew in the event of traffic problems, I lose two..

My god-daughter uses co-voiturage if she's going from Paris to Lyon with her boyfriend, though she still uses the train when travelling alone.

[Peter Crawford]

I would certainly say: stop trying to make SNCF follow a more 'BR' model- old trains and under-investment crippling the network. In 1995, no-one saw the problems, but they're surfacing now. GTR, Northern, VTEC and GWML electrifications/IEP are just victims of bad decisions in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

[Peter Crawford]

I am making my layout into two parts: a removable section on one side, a narrow fixed section on the other, but 2' 6" boards on the long ends, offering 3 continuous runs, one in the mountains, one by the sea and the big one covering both. Valence TGV must wait...

[Mike Storey]

I would certainly say: stop trying to make SNCF follow a more 'BR' model- old trains and under-investment crippling the network. In 1995, no-one saw the problems, but they're surfacing now. GTR, Northern, VTEC and GWML electrifications/IEP are just victims of bad decisions in the 60s, 70s and 80s.

 

Naff all to do with the trains - SNCF have one of the lowest average ages of trains across it's network, since the current programme of loco-hauled replacements began, than almost any other European operator.

 

SNCF is following the worst of the Railtrack period, not the BR model.

[Peter Crawford]

Crippling the BR network...