Strip or not to strip, that is the question

[jonnyuk]

hi all, I’m after some opinions on my current layout and whether to strip it down and start again or simply patch it up. A bit of background to the layout, I initially created an l shaped layout a year or so ago using Hornby track and points, i then bought a Bullied from Kernow and it hates my points, derails on every single one. After another long story I have decided to swap out the Hornby points for peco when the weather warms up. now it’s warm i have a decision to make on whether to just replace the points (which i bought over the winter) or take the opportunity to re-do the whole layout. some key points[/size]
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1: Layout is the garage (not insulated)[/size]
2: My era is 1930-late 1940, South West (ish)[/size]
3: I like long trains that I can watch go round[/size]
4: two running loops[/size]
5: non prototypical, enjoyment overrides all[/size]
6: no fiddle yard as I don’t have the space, would prefer scenic sidings that I can have fun with.[/size]
7: small engine shed area[/size]
8: small goods area[/size]

9: small end terminus siding that can hold 2 EMU's
7: DCC[/size]

 

my current layout does all this but i feel each bit could be done allot better with more thought
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Included some pics to help visualise what I have at the min[/size]
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Ideas, options,. Opinions all welcome.[/size]
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[Chimer]

My first thought is very basic - if all your other stock copes with your points OK, is the problem with your new loco (maybe dodgy wheel back-to-backs) rather than the trackwork?  How is it derailing - driving wheels or just the bogies?  Just swapping in Peco Set-track points for Hornby might not change anything - moving to Streamline points might, but that's a complete redesign because of the different geometry.

 

A twin-track roundy-roundy that gives you what you want in the space you're currently using has pretty much got to look the way yours looks now.  A 93" x 78" rectangle with an operating well in the middle would allow other, arguably better looking approaches - is this feasible?

 

And are you basically happy with the way your current layout works, apart from the new loco? 

 

Apologies for just posing questions without answers!

 

Cheers

 

Chris

[jonnyuk]

Hi Chris, i returned my first bullied as the back to back was way out. The second one does go through some of the points at very slow speed (only because i have tweaked the V in the points), i have ran the bullied on a test layout with peco points and it runs fine, to be honest other wagons/coaches play up on the points as well so its something i'm going to do.

 

i can't really take any more room the garage so the baseboard layout is what it is unfortunately, i do like the layout, it's fun to operate but when i look at other layouts i think it could be better especially in regards the station.i suppose the loops need to stay as is, its all other track work that i don't mind changing around to make it more interesting.

Maybe i'm changing for changing sake?

thanks 

[Chimer]

Maybe first try swapping just a couple of points so you a) know much pain is involved and b) see whether it makes much difference.  I suspect the answers may be a) lots and b) little.  I also suspect what you really really want to do is rip it up and start again - you are constrained by the dimensions but I'm sure you could manage something better looking - though that would be easier with a bit less track  .  I'm sure someone will be along in a minute with a plan .... probably nothing like what you want, but it will get the debate started!

 

Chris

[Pete the Elaner]

 

 

And are you basically happy with the way your current layout works, apart from the new loco? 

 

Apologies for just posing questions without answers!

 

There is only 1 person who can give any answers, that is Jonny.

Eventually we all come to a point where we have to decide if our current layout still gives us what we want from it.

 

The station area was mentioned. I noticed that it has 3 centre lines each served by platforms on both sides. Platforms on both sides are uncommon (Reading had one but that may well have gone with the recent remodelling), The old motorail platform at Euston has faces on both sides, but only 1 is still in use. There will be others but I can't think of any & they are certainly not a very common feature. You could then have more space with the same amount of track.

42" is quite tight for a 180 curve.

 

The problem with your Bullied is likely to be back to backs. You would think it is easy to get RTR ones accurate but they are all over the place.

 

I would make a list of things you want to do differently if you started again. This may prompt you to make a fresh start.

 

Before anything else, take plenty of photos of what you have. If you do decide to re-build, you will still have these to as reminders.

Edited April 20, 2018 by Pete the Elaner

[ejstubbs]

42" is quite tight for a 180 curve.

 

Setrack 3rd radius (19.875") would barely fit.  I suspect, from looking at the photos, that there's 1st radius in the 180° curve off the end of the station and past the goods sidings in the station yard, and at the other end of the layout (though it might be that the Setrack track spacing makes it look worse than it is).

 

If that's the case then I'd wouldn't be surprised if a fair number of larger modern RTR locos wouldn't get round those curves without at least flinching a bit.

 

Which doesn't, of course, solve the riddle of the points...

Edited April 20, 2018 by ejstubbs

[jonnyuk]

i think from memory, most of the curves are a mix of 3rd and 2nd (sometimes on the same 180), my measurements are not 100% accurate, there might be an inch here or there. There are 1st on some of the siding entrances, to be fair everything behalves on the loops and only a couple of carriages moan on the siding etc.

 

The comment in regards removing a plaform is valid and that has crossed my mind to try and de-cluttered , i have since removed all the scenic stuff from the middle (town section) and it looks allot better with less stuff on it! 

if i was to change the layout i'd have the station along the back wall with a passing line for the outer loop, then bring the goods and siding area into the bottom section of the L.

 

decisions decisions, because of the baseboards been an L, i'm struggling to find any L shaped layouts to look at, suppose they don't have to be an L though to gain inspiration.

[DCB]

You have two realistic options, either accept you can't run new out of the box RTR locos or rip it up and start again. A new Bullied should be OK on 3rd radius approx 19" but as I don't think you can fit 4th radius in it means single track or wider baseboards.

 

I think being pragmatic I would get rid of the Bullied and stick to pre 2000 locos, lets face it ebay is full of them.  A good old Triang Winston Churchill loco chassis and tender chassis with a new unrebuilt WC loco and tender bodys would be good and say on the track as would a Wrenn BB or C either rebuilt or unrebuilt.   Some of those curves look like 1st radius.

 

If you go for a rebuild treat Peco streamline small 2ft radius points as an absolute minimum and try to use the mediums, likewise keep to 3rd radius as a minimum checking and adjusting back to back is also obligatory on the new stuff as is trimming the guard irons in front of the leading (bogie) wheels and trimming the coupling hooks so they don't catch in points.

[Harlequin]

The Bulleid is specified as working on a min radius of 438mm (2nd radius) and your small Hornby points should be 438mm radius - so going by the numbers, it should work. But of course, other factors will come into play.

 

Reverse curves might be the problem?

 

If your garage is damp/humid that might be causing the baseboard to undulate a bit...?

 

If you wanted to re-lay the track and adjust the design still using Hornby/SetTrack perhaps you could open up the radii by cutting the corner of the L a bit more, like this rough sketch?

The double track circuit is mostly 3rd and 4th radius except at the right hand end where it is 2nd and 3rd. Station, sidings, engine shed, etc. would be in the middle.

That does make the back corner more difficult to reach, though.

 

Alternatively, could you do this?

That would really open up the possibilities! Then you could sensibly use Peco streamline points, run modern stock more reliably, reach into the corners more easily and generally improve everything.

Edited April 21, 2018 by Harlequin

[jonnyuk]

i was probably not very clear in what i said in regards the bullied. the only bit it struggles with is the point work when forking off. all other locos are fine.

saying that i have decided to change the layout, i'm going to have 3 platforms length ways across the back, one platform will be a small terminus that i can fit an EMU down with a small goods area there as well, i have seen a couple of layouts in my Hornby magazines that i think i can take bits from.

 

what i am also thinking about is a turn table in the small part of the L shape and move my engine shed into this section. i'm going to sketch out some ideas and post them up.

[jonnyuk]

hi all, sorry to drag an old thread up but i have finally stripped down my layout. i have been playing in anyrail (only got the trial so left out where the straight bits of track would be) and come up with this. i have not got as far as a sidings or engine shed but that can come later. what are people's thoughts/suggestions?

 

please keep in mind my criteria on my post in terms of what i'm wanting from a layout.

 

[jonnyuk]

i'm about ready to start laying track and although i think the above will be fun do the more experienced modellers have better suggestions?

[DCB]

I Think I would fill the board with track.  Maybe have a hidden bit for fiddling maybe with scenic town above..

[jonnyuk]

that's a much better idea, its open my eyes to other possibilities now, thank you

[John Tomlinson]

Just found this topic.

 

My initial reaction to seeing your present plan (now dismantled) is that the "L" produces overly tight curves, which test running qualities as you've found, and also don't look very realistic. Option 1 in post #9 goes some way to mitigating this problem, but only some way.

 

Now that you've stripped it all down, burnt your boats as it were, my suggestion would be that you look to include the inside of the "L" to create a rectangular base, and then look to establish a space in the middle in which you can stand and be the operator. I think this is what is intended in option 2 of #9. This will immediately increase the radius of the curves, improving both the running quality and the appearance. 30 inches square is perfectly feasible as a hole, even somewhat less if you are of slight build. I'd add that "S" bends are never good news for quality running, at least not unless you have a huge space which neither you nor 99.9% of us have, and these are best avoided.

 

John.

Edited May 30, 2018 by John Tomlinson

[jonnyuk]

i think i have settled on a track plan. i would love to of changed from the L shape but there simply is not enough room the garage so i'm stuck with it. it may not be prototypical but it should give me enough of the interest factor for shunting etc.

 

 

 

 

 

[Zomboid]

You appear to have hidden a return loop in there, though it'll require some right hand running to use it. Given the other constraints and potential for fun and games with the wiring, I wouldn't have it.

[jonnyuk]

That’s a good spot, I have now removed the return, actually given me A bit more freedom with the siding and entrance to the engine shed area

[Zomboid]

The other thing that appears odd to me is the station pointwork - what are you trying to achieve with it? The way the diamonds seem to be connected is a bit confusing, and it looks like the through platform for the inner track is the rear platform face, and it crosses the outer track at each end...

[jonnyuk]

sorry to drag an old topic back but i have finally got round to finishing the track laying. the loops are down, pinned and wired up as are the stations and visible fiddle yard to the right. i think i have settled on a loco sidings but i'm still undecided where the good shed should go.i've been running trains round for a few months and there seems allot of play potential which is what i was after.

 

what are peoples thoughts on the position of the goods shed and loco sidings etc

 

 

 

 

 

[Zomboid]

The question which immediately comes to mind for me is which bit's which? It looks a bit like the goods and loco facilities are mixed up amongst each other.

 

Also what's going on at the back of the station? What looks like the rear platform, in particular?

[Pete the Elaner]

I know is not finished yet but...

 

How do passengers access the station? It looks like they have to cross a line to get to the station building. Stations are there to serve the surroundings, so thinking about what goes on around them may give the layout some focus.

A friend of mine always refers to them as "street level buildings" because the station buildings themselves are accessed from the street then you have to get to the platforms. Where possible, station buildings adjoin a platform. Colchester is a good example of an exception though; once you have bought your ticket from the main office, you have to use the subway to get to any platform.

On the subject of subways; this is a common alternative, but lesser modelled access method. I can see you have Hornby platforms & they make a subway section. It is an easy way of modelling a covered passenger crossing.

 

The canopies look wrong too. Unless you have a small halt with a waiting room halfway along the platform, once any platform covering stops, you don't get any more, so once you get down the stairs (ideally covered stairs in a bigger station), you would be under canopy immediately. When walking to the far end of the platform, you would walk past the canopy & out into the open.

I have seen layouts with canopy-open-canopy as the model passenger walks along the platform, but I have never seen this in real life. I get many more ideas from the real thing than I do from looking at other's layouts.

 

I am not trying to be picky, just share some observations which have helped me in the past.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Pete the Elaner

[Zomboid]

I have seen layouts with canopy-open-canopy as the model passenger walks along the platform, but I have never seen this in real life. I get many more ideas from the real thing than I do from looking at other's layouts.

It's unusual, but that was a feature of the route to the bay platforms at Oxford, and may still be.

[john new]

Based on my experience garages can be a big problem due to damp and then mould. I have lost all my modelling time this summer as I am finally getting around to attacking the garage so that everything in it (it is my only available storage area) is inside sealable containers. Six old baseboards are having to go to tip today as I forgot to pre-treat them against woodworm before I put them in long term store in the garage. Your call obviously but the time to decide is before you add too much scenery on solid baseboard tops. I do have that option on my drive and from time to time have done so with a test oval on a board set up temporarily on trestles.

 

Perhaps your better approach is to use the that L shaped area for a storage cupboard you can shut to keep spiders etc., out, add a greenhouse heater for combating damp, and have a portable layout you can then get out for a running day, a personal DIY exhibition, then put back into storage. It is going to have to be my solution. I may get something worked out to put up in the spare bedroom BUT if I do it can't be permanent as it will have to be over the bed and be completely removable to external storage in the garage when the family come to stay.

Edited September 13, 2018 by john new

[DCB]

It looks good.   Good elements. Plenty fo loco depots were right alongside goods facilities.    I did a drawing basically sort of similar above which had a link back from the main line to the yard forming a way to turn locos. It morphed to a return loop before being deleted but would be useful for turning locos. Modern .locos tend to shed bits when lifted off the layout to turn them...

I know is not finished yet but...

 

How do passengers access the station? It looks like they have to cross a line to get to the station building. Stations are there to serve the surroundings, so thinking about what goes on around them may give the layout some focus....

A road access over a bridge in the back corner would sort the access.  Some station buildings are on platforms accessed by road or foot bridges over or under tracks and others (Newton Abbott) had tracks between the building and  the platform, again with bridges or subways.   Subways were generally used on embankments and best avoided elsewhere as they have a habit of flooding.  This common sense was lost on road engineers who routinely build subways which flood in a moderate drizzle.