Intermodal in P4

[rdr]

Hi everyone, not much to say at this point but the seeds have been sown and the idea has been set.

 

What i'm attempting is an intermodal depot at a port with loading and unloading of containers from a ship to rail.

 

It will be in 4mm scale with locos having traction motors and on board power.

 

It will be run on DCC with a difference, DCC AIR.

Edited April 22, 2018 by rdr

[rdr]

Love some input on this idea, what stock would suit the situation for the last ten years, what formations are required and the locos to pull them. Also there will be a single main line running through to keep things flowing, so an idea on passenger traffic would help. I'm not sure on the area yet to narrow it down, but it will possibly be south west ish.

[arran]

Love some input on this idea, what stock would suit the situation for the last ten years, what formations are required and the locos to pull them. Also there will be a single main line running through to keep things flowing, so an idea on passenger traffic would help. I'm not sure on the area yet to narrow it down, but it will possibly be south west ish.

HI

 

Most of the current models available are good for what you require.

 

Of-loading direct from Ship to rail  as far as i know does not happen now , they go to the railhead within the port.

 

Regards Arran

[Fat Controller]

HI

 

Most of the current models available are good for what you require.

 

Of-loading direct from Ship to rail  as far as i know does not happen now , they go to the railhead within the port.

 

Regards Arran

Have direct rail- ship transfers taken place since the days of the old four-ton containers? The only locations I can think of where it might have happened are at Fishguard, Newhaven and possibly some of the East Anglian ports. Elsewhere, containers are held in stocking areas, away from the quayside.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Fat Controller

[Ravenser]

HI

 

Most of the current models available are good for what you require.

 

Of-loading direct from Ship to rail  as far as i know does not happen now , they go to the railhead within the port.

 

Regards Arran

 

 

Arran is correct - I know of no container terminal with wagons on the quay . SCT Southampton and FDRC both shunt off the quay round to the the railhead. I'm not directly familiar with the exact arrangement at Gateway or Thamesport (or at the feeder ports such as Immingham, Teesport, Greenock  etc. Liverpool railhead is off-dock , and with a few deepsea services calling they'd be annoyed at being called a feeder-port)

 

I once tripped over the fact that EWS Immingham and I think British Steel Scunthorpe , possibly with the involvement of one or two other local interested parties seemed to be running their own internal container shuttle in N.Lincs on a weekly basis (probably "as required" )  I'm not sure if anyone outside N Lincolnshire was aware of this - I gather there was a very long tradition of local arrangements outside normal practices in Scunthorpe to get the job done, and I've always suspected that this operated on a "they don't need to know, so we won't tell them" basis as far as the rest of the world was concerned 

[Fat Controller]

Arran is correct - I know of no container terminal with wagons on the quay . SCT Southampton and FDRC both shunt off the quay round to the the railhead. I'm not directly familiar with the exact arrangement at Gateway or Thamesport (or at the feeder ports such as Immingham, Teesport, Greenock  etc. Liverpool railhead is off-dock , and with a few deepsea services calling they'd be annoyed at being called a feeder-port)

 

I once tripped over the fact that EWS Immingham and I think British Steel Scunthorpe , possibly with the involvement of one or two other local interested parties seemed to be running their own internal container shuttle in N.Lincs on a weekly basis (probably "as required" )  I'm not sure if anyone outside N Lincolnshire was aware of this - I gather there was a very long tradition of local arrangements outside normal practices in Scunthorpe to get the job done, and I've always suspected that this operated on a "they don't need to know, so we won't tell them" basis as far as the rest of the world was concerned 

Thamesport definitely has the rail terminal at right angles to the quay, and some distance away.

London Gateway has the rail terminal parallel to the quayside, but separated by a large stacking area from it.

[cromptonnut]

Google​ Maps will likely give you some good aerial shots of track arrangements and you should be able to figure out from the lorries etc how things move from ship to lorry.

[rdr]

I'm quite happy to be a bit out of the norm with this and have a stacking area between the ship and rail, even stretching the time span a fair bit. It's the idea of ship to train (and trucks to a lesser degree), having several cranes constantly feeding the trains and obviously reloading at a later time. Warren Lane was my inspiration for this with my little twist of a container ship to unload and load.

Edited April 25, 2018 by rdr

[Covkid]

I'm quite happy to be a bit out of the norm with this and have a stacking area between the ship and rail, even stretching the time span a fair bit. It's the idea of ship to train (and trucks to a lesser degree), having several cranes constantly feeding the trains and obviously reloading at a later time. Warren Lane was my inspiration for this with my little twist of a container ship to unload and load.

 

Just remember how large a ship is whilst ruminating over your ideas. Not sure how much space you have but it may well be swallowed.

[rdr]

Just remember how large a ship is whilst ruminating over your ideas. Not sure how much space you have but it may well be swallowed.

yes they are pretty big.  

[cromptonnut]

Found​ a "small" container ship, 3ft long and £299.99.  http://www.deansmarine.co.uk/shop/product_info.php/cPath/10_20/products_id/366 

 

There's a big one at 1.6m long and I'll let you sit down before you click through to find the price http://deansmarine.co.uk/shop/product_info.php/cPath/10_20/products_id/379

 

Actually under the 'merchant ships' range there are a few that might fit what you want nicely.  http://deansmarine.co.uk/shop/index.php/cPath/10_20

 

​Although it may not exactly be to the scale you require, being as you're doing it in P4 I know the standards are much more tighter than for people like me who just model in OO - it looks lovely though.

Edited April 26, 2018 by cromptonnut

[rdr]

I had planned for a ship around 2-3m long and was looking to make it myself, as i didn't manage to find anything when i searched. I only need a waterline model but that first one looks reasonable enough to have two of them, which would keep the depth of the layout a bit smaller. Well spotted.

 

Although i'm producing this in P4 i'm no rivet counter, the reason for P4 is the track just looks so much better and that extra 2.4mm between wheels helps with the active traction motors.

 

I'm no stranger to P4 having built and run a small station layout based on Cleobury Mortimer many years ago using C&L track parts and Exactoscale Lima bogie conversion kits. That was radio controlled and worked so well that i wouldn't consider having track power again. Now that DCC has taken such a stronghold there's scope for a major upgrade for DCC.

Edited April 26, 2018 by rdr

[eastworld]

It's much easier to unload containers and stack them so that they can then be accessed and moved whenever required, otherwise the train arrival/departure would have to coincide with that of the ship.

 

Stu

[Clearwater]

There’s a whole world of IT optimisation systems on how containers are stacked within yards seeking to minimise the number of subsequent moves made.

[rdr]

It's much easier to unload containers and stack them so that they can then be accessed and moved whenever required, otherwise the train arrival/departure would have to coincide with that of the ship.

 

Stu

I don't intend to move the ship at all, so the trains would be timed to suit an imaginary timetable. I'll have at least three or four trains waiting for containers from the ship unloading sequence, and returning containers waiting to be reloaded to the ship. I'm happy to have an area where surplus or out of position containers will be stored, it all adds to the interest.

 

If exhibited this would be blended in to keep the layout flowing and interesting.

Edited April 26, 2018 by rdr

[Satan's Goldfish]

Only location I know of where there were rails under dock side container cranes was Harwich, but this was more of a remnant of its previous use and the fact that it was an early location used for deep sea shipping containers. As far I'm aware, the cranes never loaded containers onto trains straight from ships. The storage and rail loading area was at an angle, back from the water front.

 

I've built a very crude 4mm scale waterline container ship, it's just under 4' long, quite a bit shorter than you're planning. Even so, if the holds were open rather than just painted on then it would hold about 200x 20' containers. This is a hell of a lot more than would fit on Warren Lane and is a very small ship.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/87535-satans-containers-and-stuff/

 

Also, even at 4' it weighs a lot!

 

The next consideration is dock side cranes for unloading container ships. I have very slowly been modifying a pair of Play Mobile cranes that could fit over that ship. Boards to accommodate the models would need to be at least 2' 6" wide and the space between the legs would be wide enough for a 3 lane road (At least 4 would be more prototypical!) But in proportion with the ship it looks ok. In reality, if it was a 2mm scale model it would still be undersized. A proper 4mm dock side crane would be huge and tower well above head height on a model layout.

 

Then we move on to cranes for loading rail vehicles. The Heljan cranes are really undersized, but look right in a compressed model rail environment. A 4mm 40' container will not fit straight between the legs at the front without being twisted round slightly, and a 45' doesn't even have enough clearance to back again. It is only just high enough to double stack containers. I also have a Kibri crane for a bit of comparison; height has the same issues, and legs can only pass a 20' box, but it's 16" across so can span a more realistic number of 7 tracks. There's a lot of different cranes used in UK prototype, and it's worth comparing the size of the old Southampton Maritime cranes to the modern ones (similar to those at the new Felixstow North). Not quite as big as dock side cranes, but big enough to completely dominate a model layout and be above head height.

 

Moving containers between locations around a port mostly falls between articulated trailers being hauled by specific tractor units, or straddle carriers. Easiest option to replicate this would be something like a loop of the Faller system with trailers running between the dock, the stacks, and the rail terminal. Some of the Felixstow stacks also have yet more cranes spanning them. Straddle carriers are much bigger and able to stack containers on top of each other (I think there has also been locations where they have been able to run along rail wagons inlaid in tarmac to load containers straight onto trains, but I'm not 100% on that), but figuring a way to run models of those could prove a challenge, and they are too tall to fit under cranes the height of Heljans.

 

Oxford do a 4mm reach stacker, very nice model, but not motorised. However it is common practice at some locations to use reach stackers to load trains rather than cranes.

 

In summary, it's not impossible to build a proper working container port, and even a prototypically small one would be a very large and incredibly impressive model in height, length, and width. To be practical though, you may wish to consider some selective compression. 2x smaller ships may be better than 1x large one, it would allow you to scale down the size of your dock cranes to something more manageable, which in turn gives you a board width you can actually reach the middle of etc. Another tip is that there's quite a range of ship detailing parts available in smaller scales (1/100, 1/87) which can help making the vessels appear larger than they actually are if used cleverly. Your container quantity required once you take in to account filling ships, stacks, and trains is likely to be in the thousands, but smaller ships would make that low thousands rather than high thousands (either way, buy shares in C-Rail). There's plenty of suitable wagons available from the major manufacturers, so at least you're covered there.

 

There's a few hurdles to overcome there, but if you dream big and have the motivation then go for it.

[cromptonnut]

There's a few hurdles to overcome there, but if you dream big and have the motivation then go for it.

 

... and have the space

[rdr]

Thanks SG, a very in depth reply. Yes i agree two smaller ships may be better than one large, and provide more interest. I have up to 36' length and 4' width to play with if i have to downsize where i am, way more at my workshop but i must keep within certain limits.

 

I will be using several cranes that i'll build to suit the layout, and i will be visiting my local freightliner depot for a walkaround to get the feel of it.

 

This has been brewing for quite a few years, so hopefully it'll start soon.

[Fat Controller]

The very latest facilities have self-driving straddle carriers and tug-trailers to move the boxes to and from the quayside to the stocking areas- I wonder if something could be done using the Faller roadway or similar?

[Satan's Goldfish]

tug trailers using faller would be easy enough (suitable truck chassis).

 

The straddle carries are a different issue though as the wheels don't share an axle or steering rod so wouldn't translate to the faller system easily, if it all. A completely customised computer controlled system would be needed so the carrier could somehow follow an invisible guide line that it can still trace beneath containers, and place containers in multiple locations while organising multiple carriers not to drive in to each other..... alternatively 1 front wheel follows the guide and that information is transferred to steer the other front wheel.

 

The 'simplest' (and probably the most captivating to watch) set up would be; dock side cranes unloading, straddle carries collecting and transferring directly to stacks, Lorries (faller system), or trains (rails set in hard standing). Minimises the number of different types of crane required, only the workings of dock side and straddle carriers to figure out, plus minimal of different types of spares required.

 

Knew I'd seen the straddle to train method somewhere, this is Tilbury which looks like it covers everything listed above:

[The Fatadder]

In terms of P4 fitting and wagons have you looked into it much?

 

From a RTR perspective its a long time since I looked at intermodal stock, for some of the available models P4 conversion is more involved than just putting in some new wheels.  Hurst Models produce (or at least used to) an etched replacement bogie frame which reuses the Bachmann mounting plate.  I still have some left over (potentially along with some P4 Bachmann Intermodal flats) that I am likely to be selling later in the year.

 

I think for more modern wagons the Dapol FEA was a bit easier to work with, at least  I cant recall doing major surgery on them when I had some.

[simon47603]

There's always Fishguard:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/31568-combined-south-wales-freightliner-and-passenger-trains/

[rdr]

I've still got some old Hornby container wagons here with P4 wheelsets in them, but no i haven't seen the newer models close enough to evaluate them. I was looking at producing new bogies for whichever ones i decide to get, which would cure any problems that arise.

 

The general idea is to have two or three large cranes that can unload and reload to the trains and possibly a small bit of lorry movement, but i see that a storage area will be needed so that's got to be worked in.

 

I don't think modelling an existing depot will be practical, so the old modellers license will come to bear a bit.

Edited April 27, 2018 by rdr

[John M]

Direct rail to ship transfer may have been possible at Holyhead Freightliner Terminal  with a number of sidings extending under the rear of the ship loading gantries, though most of the rail borne container traffic in later years appears to have been handled in a separate yard  parallel to the ship loading gantries/container stacking area. ohttp://www.holyhead.com/holyheadcontainerterminal/index.html

 

Bell Lines tended to use a common gantries for container movements at Waterford Port & possibly at a number of locations in the UK http://www.irishships.com/images/Bell%20Lines/Paddy%20Roche/BELL%20RENOWN%20JAN%20BECKER%20BELL%20REBEL.jpg.

 

The Port of Waterford uses ship loading gantries to for loading/unloading road/rail container traffic as a legacy of Bell Lines operations, though railborne container traffic through Waterford Port never recovered to the levels carried between the 70s & 90s.

[rdr]

In terms of P4 fitting and wagons have you looked into it much?

 

From a RTR perspective its a long time since I looked at intermodal stock, for some of the available models P4 conversion is more involved than just putting in some new wheels.  Hurst Models produce (or at least used to) an etched replacement bogie frame which reuses the Bachmann mounting plate.  I still have some left over (potentially along with some P4 Bachmann Intermodal flats) that I am likely to be selling later in the year.

 

I think for more modern wagons the Dapol FEA was a bit easier to work with, at least  I cant recall doing major surgery on them when I had some.

Let me know when you decide to let them go.