Class 08 lack of 'wasp stripes' as late as 1967 - unusual?

[Trev52A]

It has been pointed out to me that a photo I took on 11th August 1967 includes a green Class 08 No D3580 in green livery but no wasp stripes (as least on the cab end, but probably none on either end). Was this unusual by this late date, or did many other 08s not have stripes by then? I have checked previous threads on this forum but no definitive answer came up - apologies if I have missed it.

 

I have always shied away from having 'all over green' diesels on my 1960s layout as I thought that every one I saw had either a small yellow panel, or stripes (if a shunter) - apparently not true!

 

Anyway, here is one of the photos I took that day.

 

44993 heads a northbound parcels train out of Preston on 11th August 1967, passing D3580 - which appears to be in green livery but without 'wasp stripes'.

 

PS Does anybody recognise himself of the wall (bottom right)?

 

Cheers

Trevor

[Enterprisingwestern]

I have a photo, I think it's posted on one of Russell Saxtons livery threads, of, I think from memory, D3586 at Crewe in 1970/71 sans stripes.

 

Mike.

[45125]

I have a photo, I think it's posted on one of Russell Saxtons livery threads, of, I think from memory, D3586 at Crewe in 1970/71 sans stripes.

 

Mike.

 

The shopping regimen for shunters was very hit and miss, depending on use. I would be quite possible for a shunter not to visit works (where the stripes would be applied) for anything up to 10 years.

 

Al Taylor

Edited April 23, 2018 by 45125

[Clive Mortimore]

The shopping regimen for shunters was very hit and miss, depending on use. I would be quite possible for a shunter not to visit works (where the swipes would be applied) for anything up to 10 years.

 

Al Taylor

Hi Al

 

It has had the mods to the radiator fillers and its ladders removed. Even on LMR locos which seemed two steps in front of the other regions in removing the ladders the wasp stripes had normally been applied by then. The whys and wherefores of shunter mods and livery changes will never be explained, thankfully so we as modellers have all these lovely variations we can model.

[Yardman]

It's certainly rare, I never saw a diesel shunter without stripes after 62. It just proves you need to model from photographs if you want to be accurate for period. Great picture by the way.

[Mark Saunders]

It's certainly rare, I never saw a diesel shunter without stripes after 62. It just proves you need to model from photographs if you want to be accurate for period. Great picture by the way.

 

It all depends on when the decision was made that Shunting Locomotives had to have them and if the loco received repaint before this how long it took to return to works again?

 

Mark Saunders

[45125]

Hi Al

 

It has had the mods to the radiator fillers and its ladders removed. Even on LMR locos which seemed two steps in front of the other regions in removing the ladders the wasp stripes had normally been applied by then. The whys and wherefores of shunter mods and livery changes will never be explained, thankfully so we as modellers have all these lovely variations we can model.

 

Many of the 350s had the ladders removed at depots. 

[Clive Mortimore]

Many of the 350s had the ladders removed at depots. 

Did they have the mods done to the radiator fillers at the same time? Didn't some larger depots had a painter as well, and most 350s went off to the main depot for the bigger examinations. It is just interesting that D3580 managed not to get wasp ends on as late as 1967. I am sure there is no plotted history for this humble loco unlike some others where they can be dated to a particular month by their livery.

[david ellis]

If the date on this is correct this Class 04 had not yet received wasp stripes either in 1967

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Diesel-Shunter-Class-04-D2304-Class-24-D5097-Gateshead-Shed-1967-Postcard-/391760600748

[Zomboid]

Sightly off topic, but the southern weren't in a great rush to paint the ends of their 33s yellow. I've got a picture in a book of a 33 with no yellow ends on top of a nameless Bulleid and the first coach in the train is blue/ grey. Apparently to do with the Bournemouth electrification, so 1966ish.

 

I bet if you try to run an all green 08 (to me a 350 is a modern EMU...) in "1967" you'll be so bombarded with "I think you'll find"s that you'll be painting the stripes on it with a felt tip pen by lunchtime just to make it stop.

[Nearholmer]

I've got a clutch of rather wonky photos taken from the line side by an engineer working on the Bournemouth Line electrification in 66/67, and they include Cromptons with no yellow on the front. He was meant to be taking pictures of exciting things like concrete troughs and the foundations of substations, but included trains wherever he could!

[45125]

If the date on this is correct this Class 04 had not yet received wasp stripes either in 1967

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Diesel-Shunter-Class-04-D2304-Class-24-D5097-Gateshead-Shed-1967-Postcard-/391760600748

 

Thats an 03, and there where a few around at this time without wasp stripes, two of our local Dairycoates ones didn't get them till 68.

 

Al Taylor

Edited April 23, 2018 by 45125

[Trev52A]

I've got a clutch of rather wonky photos taken from the line side by an engineer working on the Bournemouth Line electrification in 66/67, and they include Cromptons with no yellow on the front. He was meant to be taking pictures of exciting things like concrete troughs and the foundations of substations, but included trains wherever he could!

 

I wonder if he included D6516, D6524 or D6527 in any of his shots. I travelled behind them on 24th July 1966 as part of a 7-day Southern Region Rail Rover but didn't take any pictures (Why would I? As a 15-year old I was after Bulleid Pacifics and the like!)

I am tempted to get a Crompton for my layout but want it to look like one of those three.

 

Regards

Trevor

[Yardman]

If the date on this is correct this Class 04 had not yet received wasp stripes either in 1967

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Diesel-Shunter-Class-04-D2304-Class-24-D5097-Gateshead-Shed-1967-Postcard-/391760600748

I suspect the date given for this photo is incorrect as most locos where blue by 1967. They started repainting them in late 64, if not a full repaint they had yellow ends applied. I suspect the date is more like 63-64.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 most locos where blue by 1967. They started repainting them in late 64, if not a full repaint they had yellow ends applied.

 

Really?

 

Mike.

[Michael Delamar]

Im looking for a shot of D3856 between 1960-64 for this same reason, seems a bit photo shy.

['CHARD]

On 24/04/2018 at 09:45, Yardman said:

I suspect the date given for this photo is incorrect as most locos where blue by 1967. They started repainting them in late 64, if not a full repaint they had yellow ends applied. I suspect the date is more like 63-64.

 

Fact-checking required.  Repaints into blue started in 1966.  

[The Johnster]

The blue livery was trialled on D1733, which was painted in it to haul the ‘XP64’ set of prototype coaches; many of the innovations of the mk2 coaches. This set was the first to use the blue/grey livery.  This was introduced fully in 1966.  In the meantime, the first mk2 coaches, FKs, were turned out in malachite green for the Southern Region and lined maroon for the WR & ER.  

 

Trev52A, the OP, took the photo himself, so the date can be taken, I think, as correct. 
 

 

[Porcy Mane]

On 22/04/2018 at 21:46, Trev52A said:

I have always shied away from having 'all over green' diesels on my 1960s layout as I thought that every one I saw had either a small yellow panel, or stripes (if a shunter) - apparently not true!

 Trevor, 

Just using Gateshead 03's as an example D2050 had no wasp stripes towards the end of 1967 and I suspect this loco went straight into rail blue. D2056 stayed in all over green well into the mid 60's also, but I don't have any 1967 phots of that particular loco. May well be worthwhile having a look back through some of your phots.

 

On 23/04/2018 at 10:49, Yardman said:

It's certainly rare, I never saw a diesel shunter without stripes after 62. It just proves you need to model from photographs if you want to be accurate for period. Great picture by the way.

 

Tony ,

D5159 still didn't have it's SYWP  when it was working the Whit bank holiday excursions around the North East at Whitsun 1964. I have other phots of N.E. region diesels taken around the same time and they are still devoid of yellow panels.

 

Here's 5148 freshly painted into blue in Feb. 1969.

 

https://flic.kr/p/bGT5FR

 

D5150 just repainted into rail blue in July 1967

 

https://flic.kr/p/yb3fgM

 

and I've always rather liked this photo of a Shiney class 40 in June 1967.

 

https://flic.kr/p/bcb9dz

 

P

 

[The Johnster]

I can't agree that the 40 at South Pelaw in June '67 is in faded BR blue as one of the Flickr comments suggests.  It looks clean and recently painted for a loco working in a heavily industrial area, and the livery cannot be more than a year old.

[Halvarras]

On 23/04/2018 at 07:51, Enterprisingwestern said:

I have a photo, I think it's posted on one of Russell Saxtons livery threads, of, I think from memory, D3586 at Crewe in 1970/71 sans stripes.

 

Mike.

 

I've seen this photo, I don't have it to hand but from (my) memory it was D3583 at Chester late December 1969, the year at least confirmed by the Class 24 in the shot having a data panel. 

Shunters in far-flung corners of the network could avoid modifications for some time - Class 03 D2127 in Cornwall was still stripeless in June 1966, had gained them by April 1967 but those on the radiator end did not wrap around onto the sides of the casing. I wonder where they were applied....? In 1974 St Blazey's green 08840 and Penzance's early blue (cabside BR logos) 08928 still had radiator ladders, and I suspect BZ's early blue (battery box logos) 08931 did too.

[Porcy Mane]

23 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 It looks clean and recently painted for a loco working in a heavily industrial area, and the livery cannot be more than a year old.

 

It only looks washed out in the area that coolant ejected from the cooling system pressure release has dried leaving the chemical residue. It's the same on the pic of the virtual Ex Works 5148. You can tell the Rail Blue is recent as the  coolant hasn't had time to stain the paint and then start to strip it.