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Help required with signalling a Layout Plan (Cambrian Street)


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Hello Guys....

I would greatly appreciate any help possible with the signalling requirements for the following layout....

 

The layout is fully laid, wired up and is in the process of having its scenery constructed.....

 

I do have a few ideas of where certain starters and home signals should be located but probably would make a complete hash of it....!

 

It is a late steam era layout.....

Western Region....with lower quadrant semaphore signals...

 

All lines and platforms are bi-directional....

 

I have the following diagrammatic plans.....the layout in three basic sections.....

 

the station......

post-20610-0-50577900-1524506681_thumb.jpg

 

the middle section....thisthe access to the engine shed and the off-scene engine shed

post-20610-0-73415800-1524506774_thumb.jpg

 

the engine shed.....

post-20610-0-23763200-1524506874_thumb.jpg

 

It would be difficult for me to lift and alter what is already laid and wired up...so anything to go with what I have would be greatly appreciated...

 

Regards always with thanks for looking...

Bob

 

The link to my layout thread below...

Edited by BobM
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Hi...

Just having a 'stab' at the signalling....would this position and signal type be correct for a departure off platform 3 and 4 not necessarily the bracket but the signal layout?....either line available but priority to the left line...forgive terminology....any good...?

 

post-20610-0-46318400-1524516997.jpg

 

Will attempt further placing in due course...

Regards always.....

Bob

Edited by BobM
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  • RMweb Gold

What would help would be some idea of how the station was to be operated, what routes trains would take, how stock was intended to be reversed (the loco is at the stop block end of the train). Do you intend to run round (which means arrivals would largely be to platform 4) or will you draw out stock and propel it back into another platform.  If so which lines would you use for that - remembering that you only have a single "main line". Only platforms 4 & 5 have access to the relief line.  I note the carriage sidings - what are they for and how long.  Are they for DMUs or coaching stock - if coaches how will the pilot run round the stock before propelling it into the siding?  The carriage sidings don't need (what I take to be) the trap points since the points off the Relief line would need to be locked normal to the main line.  Same applies the other end where the crossover will be locked normal to the Relief to prevent runaways.  Personally I would remove the link between the carriage sidings and the relief and provide a crossover in the centre of that  area between the carriage sidings line and the Relief line to allow a run-round for a pilot collecting/depositing carriage rakes.

 

I do not understand the role of the "spurs" between P1 and P2 - what will they hold and how will it get there?  Presumably only by shunting since you wouldn't want to signal a train into them - or would you?  I'm not sure that they are anything but a hazard on a passenger line - and would certainly need trapping off to prevent runaways. Personally I'd lift and remove them and put P2 parallel to P1 (with a cossover like P4/P3). If there were room I might replace them with a centre road between P1 and P2.

 

The goods is also a conundrum.  How will goods arrive?  Into P5 or the siding above it.  It would be better if it were the siding - since it has more reverse shunting opportunities there - P5 can only reach the "goods siding".  However, if you want to shunt the rest a pilot will need to pick items off the rear of the train.  The goods arrival problem is best explained by P5 and the siding above it.  If you arrive into the siding, then a pilot can pull stock off the end of the train, and run round it to shunt in various directions.  For P5 that isn't possible as it only has access to the lower siding which is shorter because the crossover there faces the wrong way.

 

I am confused about your goods yard.  It might be usual to have a reception and an departure siding - where trains can be broken up or assembled, yet so much seems to be labelled as head shunts - implying stock cannot be left standing on it?  By the way - most goods yards of this size don't have signal boxes, and the points would be operated by hand - either singly or from a ground frame.

 

Anyway - think about routes - because that is what needs to be signalled - not every possible route but those which make the station operable the way you want.  For example your signal gantry above may need a subsidiary to signal a loco to the Pilot Loco Siding.

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Hi....

Thanks for the posting, I do appreciate the input,,,,,,

This layout is depicting a station at the end of its operational life...ripe for closure, many of the feeder lines gone and downgraded....to a single incoming line....

 

perhaps some of my terminology and phrases are not correct or clearer,,,this plan is only for signalling...the plan is therefore no way to scale....

 

The signal box on the goods is an error on the plan sorry.....

 

 

Will update...more fully for each operational scenario

 

Regards 

Bob 

Edited by BobM
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Hi

 

post-20610-0-74507200-1524520047.jpg

 

 

I am updating this section by section....

 

 

Here goes, with the operations details

 

(using the terminology on the plan)...

 

An arriving goods uses the goods / relief line....

- passes through the three double slips into the uppermost siding / headshunt - the incoming loco uncoupling to then pull forward to buffers to release the wagons....

 

-  A pilot loco runs up to associated guards van, attaches and shunts this into the adjacent 'kip' - 

 

- the pilot loco returns to couple up to rear of the freed wagons and reverse shunts these into goods siding adjacent to the goods - the incoming loco is now free to go on to shed...

(or alternatively the incoming loco shunts the wagons into the goods siding to then depart to shed...the pilot loco then undertaking the shunting of wagons into the goods shed)...

 

- the pilot loco runs around the wagons and couples up, reverse shunts into the same uppermost siding / headshunt and then to propels these into goods shed to be unloaded...loco uncouples and departs back to pilot loco siding...

 

 

 

Passenger traffic.....

 

- Any DMU's may use any platform.....

 

- Auto train sets travel along the relief / goods and use platform 5 or perhaps 4 if 5 occupied by stored sets or another auto train....

 

- Two coach locals follow the same road into 4 or 3 using the crossover to run around as required....to head the departing service along the local / relief or main up / down....

 

- A five coach set headed by a Hall / Manor / standard tank sized loco can be accommodated in P 1 / 2.....

 

- The scenario being as in many terminus stations where there were no runaround facilities.....the loco would be directed along the main by signals / route indicators into 1 / 2 as required....

 

- The incoming loco would be uncoupled to pull forward slightly to the buffer stops.....

 

- The departing service would be headed by a loco coming directly from the engine shed, or by a loco already stabled prior to the arrival in one of the middle spurs...this then running through available platform road an the loc headshunt to couple up and depart....

 

 

Bob

Edited by BobM
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Hi...

On the question of signalling...hope to incorporate some of the information (especially regarding the route indicators (displaying the intended platform arrival) required for incoming trains on each of the roads) from this wonderful site....

 

https://signalbox.org/signals/gw.htm

 

Regards

Bob

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Hi...

On the question of signalling...hope to incorporate some of the information (especially regarding the route indicators (displaying the intended platform arrival) required for incoming trains on each of the roads) from this wonderful site....

 

https://signalbox.org/signals/gw.htm

 

Regards

Bob

Not impossible, but I would suggest IMHO  that any Route Indicators would be far more likely on the Starting signals (trains starting from rest and hence very slow speed) rather than on the Homes for arrival.

Edited by RailWest
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Not impossible, but I would suggest IMHO  that any Route Indicators would be far more likely on the Starting signals (trains starting from rest and hence very slow speed) rather than on the Homes for arrival.

Cheers...

Any advice on signalling this is greatly appreciated....

 

Regards

Bob

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Hi

This is where I'd seen route indicators (to arrival platform) on approaches to a station on a layout, but would use on semaphore....wonder whether BR western region ever used them...?

post-20610-0-27012400-1524598707_thumb.jpg

 

Regards

Bob

 

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  • RMweb Gold

Hi

This is where I'd seen route indicators (to arrival platform) on approaches to a station on a layout, but would use on semaphore....wonder whether BR western region ever used them...?

attachicon.gif1714710_orig.jpg

 

Regards

Bob

 

Semaphore signals did have "blinds" in a box (usually under the signal arm?) which pulled up on operating the appropriate signal lever.  Several levers operated the one signal (each locked against the others) and pulled up an appropriate blind after the route had been set.  Such things are only any good when the train is stationary or has been brought almost to a stand, the "Home" being cleared with the appropriate "blind" at the last minute.  Drivers cannot see them at speed - which is why they are usually on platform ends showing exit routes.  It was (I believe) more usual to have brackets of signals at the approach to stations. Modern practice uses "feathers" (Position Light Indicators) - that is those branches of (usually 5) small lights in a row roughly pointing to the way the locos would proceed.

 

In any case, there is a problem if you want operational signals of this type.  I know of no supplier of mechanical signal blinds, and I think they would be tricky to do, and the only provider of colour light versions (Absolute Aspects - which are what is in your photo) will make your eyes water and give your bank manager a heart attack.

 

You could use colour light signals (but unlikely in your scenario?) and use those provided by Train-Tech.  A cheaper and more limited range, but none-the-less effective.  I use them (usual disclaimer) and am most satisfied.  They supply kits (simple to make up) or ready made.  For colour lights you can also look at Eckon/Berko or CR Signals (who would be a cheaper source of specially made colour lights - I use them too and they are very good and very helpful)

 

Your problem will be to decide how far you want to go, and whether the signals will work or not.  In my opinion a layout looks daft without signals and sillier still with trains ignoring fixed non-working ones - but that is MY personal hang-up. It's your layout.

Edited by imt
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Semaphore signals did have "blinds" in a box (usually under the signal arm?) which pulled up on operating the appropriate signal lever.  Several levers operated the one signal (each locked against the others) and pulled up an appropriate blind after the route had been set.  Such things are only any good when the train is stationary or has been brought almost to a stand, the "Home" being cleared with the appropriate "blind" at the last minute.  Drivers cannot see them at speed - which is why they are usually on platform ends showing exit routes.  It was (I believe) more usual to have brackets of signals at the approach to stations. Modern practice uses "feathers" (Position Light Indicators) - that is those branches of (usually 5) small lights in a row roughly pointing to the way the locos would proceed.

 

In any case, there is a problem if you want operational signals of this type.  I know of no supplier of mechanical signal blinds, and I think they would be tricky to do, and the only provider of colour light versions (Absolute Aspects - which are what is in your photo) will make your eyes water and give your bank manager a heart attack.

 

You could use colour light signals (but unlikely in your scenario?) and use those provided by Train-Tech.  A cheaper and more limited range, but none-the-less effective.  I use them (usual disclaimer) and am most satisfied.  They supply kits (simple to make up) or ready made.  For colour lights you can also look at Eckon/Berko or CR Signals (who would be a cheaper source of specially made colour lights - I use them too and they are very good and very helpful)

 

Your problem will be to decide how far you want to go, and whether the signals will work or not.  In my opinion a layout looks daft without signals and sillier still with trains ignoring fixed non-working ones - but that is MY personal hang-up. It's your layout.

 

Hi...Cheers for the info....

 

Using route indicators came from another contributor (not on this site may I add), however having had a look at the available information on GWR signalling, I am minded just to have the required working semaphore signals, my research also confirmed, ..... as you say that route indicators were only used where trains were either stationary or at very low speeds usually at the ends of platforms or brought to a halt....so will dispense with that idea...

 

As an aside, my bank manger died at a very early age anyway as a result of getting too fat, being overfed and indulging on the bank charges and high interest rates he levied... :sungum:

 

Thanks again....

Bob

Edited by BobM
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  • RMweb Gold

How clever and skillful is this eh..?

 

 

Bob

 

Absolutely brilliant! Far beyond my arthritic old fingers! I note thr blinds are pushed up - obvious really - silly me.  Odd that it is a ringed (freight) signal referring to platforms?

Edited by imt
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 Odd that it is a ringed (freight) signal referring to platforms?

Not really. If there was a requirement to signal engines/trains from a goods-only line onto a platform road, then that is what it would say.

 

Prototypically the 'slides' of a GWR 'cash register' indicator had stencil (cut out) metal letters on a fine wire mesh, but in 4mm scale that might be pushing one's luck/skill a bit too far :-)

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  • RMweb Gold

Disclaimer: I am an interested amateur and I am NOT an expert - they will appear and criticise and amend in due course.  I am just regurgitating (badly) what I have learned from reading (and not always correctly understanding) books and postings on this topic.

 

If you will excuse me, you have created a bit of a conundrum for operations and signalling.  In glorious hindsight you need to think about how something will be used/operated FIRST. All stations were designed for a purpose, rail that wasn’t needed wasn’t laid and signalling was expensive (to install, maintain and operate) so the smaller the station the more minimal it was.

 

As far as I can understand, you need a “line of control” between the signalled area and the “yard”.  Signalling in the yard will be by shunter’s hand signals. Yard “points” will in general be manually operated.  Signallers don’t push freight trains into “yard” areas without “a joint understanding” with the shunter (or whoever is in control|), and this usually means that the freight reception goes into a jointly accessible siding and departure will be into the signalled area from a fixed siding - for which the shunter/yardmaster exchanges control - usually with telephones or “plungers” (buttons in boxes) to accept incoming or to say outgoing is ready to depart. In small rural stations freight trains are often received into the passenger platform(s) and then run round and pulled into a headshunt or removed by another loco (unlikely in sleepy branches but could be the case in your larger station).

 

I would suggest the “line of control” really needs to be across from the Pilot siding to the Local Services platform - below that is signalled and controlled from the box (sometimes by leaning out with a green flag - but controlled).  That means the crossover out of the platform and the double slip at the Pilot siding would be locked normal to the Relief line - ensuring nothing could cross (run away) into the controlled area.

 

I would recommend that freight come into the Local Services platform, this would mean a clean handover into the yard by a pilot pulling it off the incoming loco into the the loop called Goods Siding.  The siding above the Local Services is fraught with problems and would mean much of the yard would have to be signalled and controlled (signals and locked points) to achieve it (and much more care taken to keep lines clear and wagon brakes pinned etc.).  To build a departing freight, the siding above the Local Services platform could be used, and then (with agreement) the train could be pulled out of the yard and propelled into the station to await a loco from the depot.

 

You have so many platforms it might be an idea to use the Local Services one for mail/parcels some of the time and freight arrival departure for the rest.

 

Your “Kip” siding probably won’t work.  You cannot readily leave stock on a siding used for shunting, and the coal yard can only be shunted from there.  You need to think of using another siding for guards vans.

 

Anyway - your layout your rules.

Edited by imt
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Hi...

Cheers for the info,,,,,,,,,,will take all with kind regards.

Keep all the info and comments coming these are much appreciated...

 

I have no problem or concerns for the named 'local services' platform being dispensed with in favour of parcels / freight usage...the named 'kip' too could be removed, the guards van could be stabled into the this newly designated platform in which the outwards goods will be reformed or the adjacent siding...?

 

There was strangely at one stage an idea not to have this '5' as a platform at all...but just a siding or entry route for the goods, a wall running along the edge,,the station consisting of 4 platforms only...the local autocoach coming into '4' off the up/down........

 

Bob

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  • RMweb Gold

As nobody has given a starter for 10 - here’s an amateur’s attempt - I will now duck for the incoming!

 

The signalling gives some pause for thought.  Your back story has this as a run down but once busy station “ripe for closing”.  Thus once upon a time there would have been a full fit of signals, and the two lines at the station throat would probably have been an up and down - rather than a bi-directional main and relief. How far do you go?  IF the reduced station were staying open for an extended period, you might say that, since the signalling needed revising for the new usage, it was decided to use colour lights for some of the work. That is if you want the easy way avoiding making mechanical signals.

 

Signalling for the station area will mean platform end signals at 1,2,3,4 and 5 - though we have re-purposed 5 to be goods reception and mail/parcels. Signals 1 and 2  would need a main signal which only reads to the main line, and to have a subsidiary branched left reading to the “Loco headshunt” (presumably for a station pilot for main line trains into p1 or p2?) as well as (probably) a sub under the main signal to allow for the pilot shunting stock onto the main.  This then allows a pilot to draw out carriage stock onto the main up to the outer home (which will be round the corner before the points into the loco shed) and then propel back into 1,2,3 or 4. This raises the problem of some over signalling based on earlier heavy use as opposed to current use.

 

Signals 3 and 4 would need a main signal for the main line, a lower (bracket) to the right for the Relief, and probably subs under both for shunting on the main and for access to the Pilot siding.  Colour lights would have a Route Indicator to show M/R and a single pls with a shunt indicator to show the route set (they are so small you cannot make them work!).

 

The loco head shunt would need a small arm/disc/GPLS to signal clear to exit - whether there would be any indication of p1 or p2 or that dubious pair of spurs between them I don’t know.

 

Signal 5 is the Freight/Mail/Parcels departure and is a main signal reading to the Relief line, a sub for the shunt on the Relief line under that and a sub for entry into the yard bracketed right.  The points into the yard and this sub would only be operated once the shunter had indicated “acceptance” by a plunger or telephone call.

 

The exit from the Pilot loco siding has 1 route which would be unlikely to be signalled - entry to the yard - and 3 routes to P5, P4, P3.  You either have 1 disc for economy (the driver would know where he was going?), 1 disc with some indicator lights, or a stack of discs with the topmost reading to 5, then 4 then 3.

 

We have discussed above that the usual process of getting freight into and out of the yard will be by platform 5.  If that remains then arguably NO signals are required leaving the yard. If you want to allow occasional exit (say a short train of coal wagons to the shed) then you will need ground signals on the exit between the two double slips next to the pilot siding.  I’m not sure how you would do that.

 

The home signals on the Main and Relief actually cover 4 routes each. The Main signal into platforms 1-4, probably also needing subs to allow for fresh locos to back down onto carriage sets to form a departing train. A big gantry I guess?).  The Relief signal has 3 routes to platforms (3, 4 and 5) and a possible - but dodgy in my opinion, into the yard area which should be a sub I would think with the train first having be brought to a halt. Again a gantry with (left to right) sub for yard, Main and sub for P5, main and sub for P4, main and sub for p3.

 

How’s that for a start?  I warn you it’s probably wrong!

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As nobody has given a starter for 10 - here’s an amateur’s attempt - I will now duck for the incoming!

 

The signalling gives some pause for thought.  Your back story has this as a run down but once busy station “ripe for closing”.  Thus once upon a time there would have been a full fit of signals, and the two lines at the station throat would probably have been an up and down - rather than a bi-directional main and relief. How far do you go?  IF the reduced station were staying open for an extended period, you might say that, since the signalling needed revising for the new usage, it was decided to use colour lights for some of the work. That is if you want the easy way avoiding making mechanical signals.

 

Signalling for the station area will mean platform end signals at 1,2,3,4 and 5 - though we have re-purposed 5 to be goods reception and mail/parcels. Signals 1 and 2  would need a main signal which only reads to the main line, and to have a subsidiary branched left reading to the “Loco headshunt” (presumably for a station pilot for main line trains into p1 or p2?) as well as (probably) a sub under the main signal to allow for the pilot shunting stock onto the main.  This then allows a pilot to draw out carriage stock onto the main up to the outer home (which will be round the corner before the points into the loco shed) and then propel back into 1,2,3 or 4. This raises the problem of some over signalling based on earlier heavy use as opposed to current use.

 

Signals 3 and 4 would need a main signal for the main line, a lower (bracket) to the right for the Relief, and probably subs under both for shunting on the main and for access to the Pilot siding.  Colour lights would have a Route Indicator to show M/R and a single pls with a shunt indicator to show the route set (they are so small you cannot make them work!).

 

The loco head shunt would need a small arm/disc/GPLS to signal clear to exit - whether there would be any indication of p1 or p2 or that dubious pair of spurs between them I don’t know.

 

Signal 5 is the Freight/Mail/Parcels departure and is a main signal reading to the Relief line, a sub for the shunt on the Relief line under that and a sub for entry into the yard bracketed right.  The points into the yard and this sub would only be operated once the shunter had indicated “acceptance” by a plunger or telephone call.

 

The exit from the Pilot loco siding has 1 route which would be unlikely to be signalled - entry to the yard - and 3 routes to P5, P4, P3.  You either have 1 disc for economy (the driver would know where he was going?), 1 disc with some indicator lights, or a stack of discs with the topmost reading to 5, then 4 then 3.

 

We have discussed above that the usual process of getting freight into and out of the yard will be by platform 5.  If that remains then arguably NO signals are required leaving the yard. If you want to allow occasional exit (say a short train of coal wagons to the shed) then you will need ground signals on the exit between the two double slips next to the pilot siding.  I’m not sure how you would do that.

 

The home signals on the Main and Relief actually cover 4 routes each. The Main signal into platforms 1-4, probably also needing subs to allow for fresh locos to back down onto carriage sets to form a departing train. A big gantry I guess?).  The Relief signal has 3 routes to platforms (3, 4 and 5) and a possible - but dodgy in my opinion, into the yard area which should be a sub I would think with the train first having be brought to a halt. Again a gantry with (left to right) sub for yard, Main and sub for P5, main and sub for P4, main and sub for p3.

 

How’s that for a start?  I warn you it’s probably wrong!

 

Hi There's no need to 'duck'...everything anyone posts is most appreciated and is taken on board in the spirit in which is given...

 

This is very much a 'play' layout, nothing too prototypical ( as I am not versed (as you can glean from this forum, in the technical side of signalling or railway rules and regs), only using this layout to regain primarily the modelling experience for a larger/ better layout when I am retired and on the Welsh Coast...only 430 weeks to go (not that I am counting though)!

 

Where and when I wish to recreate Aberystwyth Station in 00....for which I have the full track plan, engine shed plan and signal box diagram layout, so to some extent modelling 'dear old Aber' will be perhaps more straightforwards...

 

Will digest all the comments....

Thanks

 

Bob

Edited by BobM
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  • RMweb Gold

Hi...Cheers for the info....

 

Using route indicators came from another contributor (not on this site may I add), however having had a look at the available information on GWR signalling, I am minded just to have the required working semaphore signals, my research also confirmed, ..... as you say that route indicators were only used where trains were either stationary or at very low speeds usually at the ends of platforms or brought to a halt....so will dispense with that idea...

 

As an aside, my bank manger died at a very early age anyway as a result of getting too fat, being overfed and indulging on the bank charges and high interest rates he levied... :sungum:

 

Thanks again....

Bob

 

Usual (G)WR practice was latterly (post early 1920s) to exclusively use route indicators on signals approaching station necks where there were more than 2 or 3 routes in advance of the signal.  They were used on platform starting siognals from termini but nirmally where siting constraints prevented use of a splitting signal with a separate doll for each route.

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  • RMweb Gold

Usual (G)WR practice was latterly (post early 1920s) to exclusively use route indicators on signals approaching station necks where there were more than 2 or 3 routes in advance of the signal.  They were used on platform starting siognals from termini but nirmally where siting constraints prevented use of a splitting signal with a separate doll for each route.

 

Thanks Mike.  I am assuming in that case that the incoming train would be cautioned and then the signal released when the driver could/had seen the indicator. Or would a speed restriction be normal. or is it part of "route learning"?

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  • RMweb Gold

Thanks Mike.  I am assuming in that case that the incoming train would be cautioned and then the signal released when the driver could/had seen the indicator. Or would a speed restriction be normal. or is it part of "route learning"?

 

Basically the incoming train would be running at slow speed in any case, ready to take any one of the available routes which would all likely have a similar restriction of speed.  Usually the signal would be 'off' before the train arrives unless it was crossing towards a siding or the yard or if it would be entering an occupied. platform.

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Usual (G)WR practice was latterly (post early 1920s) to exclusively use route indicators on signals approaching station necks where there were more than 2 or 3 routes in advance of the signal.  They were used on platform starting siognals from termini but nirmally where siting constraints prevented use of a splitting signal with a separate doll for each route.

 

Have you been at the bottle again Mike ?  :jester:

 

Hic !

 

F.Umbsup

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Have you been at the bottle again Mike ?  :jester:

 

Hic !

 

F.Umbsup

 

I didn't want to mention it...I require and greatly appreciate any assistance and advice Stationmaster may in the future provide me with regarding this layout...!

Regards always 

Bob :sungum:

Edited by BobM
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I didn't want to mention it...I require and greatly appreciate any assistance and advice Stationmaster may provide me with this layout...!

Regards always 

Bob :sungum:

 

Don't worry Bob, Mike knows me only too well I think !

 

He's one of the better ones and his knowledge is totally invaluable.

 

Grahame

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Hi

Just having a play with images on my Cambrian Street forum...but repeated here for signalling purposes which are incorrect for sure..only to highlight ideas...?

 

post-20610-0-50844400-1524867076_thumb.jpg

 

post-20610-0-60860200-1524867129_thumb.jpg

 

Bob

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