Minerva Kerr Stuart Victory Class

[Daveloco1]

Hi Guys

Hopefully someone out there can assist with the following:

I've had directional lights and a smoke unit added to a factory fitted sound decoder model of the above locomotive, the problem comes getting the smoke unit to operate.

The lights work fine as fitted by the company who fitted the lights and smoke unit.

The installer moved the F15 'cylinder drains opened' sound to F21 (reserved) by re-mapping CV312 to 21, should you do this if F21 is reserved and if not why not?

This was to leave F15 available for the smoke unit operation which is connected to the brown wire (F-Out 2)

On my previous Minerva (Peckett) locomotive the smoke unit operates from F15 that was achieved by the installer (not me) changing CV430 to 15, the guy who installed the smoke unit for me tried this but it did not work.

After a considerable time, he now says he does not know which cv to change to what to make it work, not helpful

So the questions

a. can I use F21 'Reserved'?

b. if not should I use F23 instead 'Guards whistle' not much use on a industrial loco some may say

c. and to either of above can someone please give me a idiots guide/step by step sequence of which cvs to change to what to make the smoke errr smoke?

The sounds are by Paul Chetter with brakes on F2 (brilliant like all Paul's sound profiles) with what I believe is a Zimo MX645R?

I use a ECoS Command Station.

Many thanks in advance.

 

Dave

[Nigelcliffe]

"Reserved" will be something someone wrote on the instruction card.   Its not a fundamental feature of the decoder.  So, yes, you can use the F21 for the "cylinder drains opened" sound if you wish. 

 

As for what CV's to change, I'd need to read a number of them, then work out the best way to do it.  There are lots of ways of moving sounds and function outputs around a Zimo.  

Or, given that Paul wrote the project, he could answer in an instant because he knows the starting position. 

 

On my previous Minerva (Peckett) locomotive the smoke unit operates from F15 that was achieved by the installer (not me) changing CV430 to 15, the guy who installed the smoke unit for me tried this but it did not work.

 

 

I doubt that just changing CV430 will achieve the result.  Without reading the CVs in the loco, I think you need two more changes, CV432=2 and CV434=2, to add the FO2 output to the function key specified in CV430. 

 

 

Your installer should know what he's doing, including reading and writing CVs to move features around the loco to the required places.  There are manuals to do this stuff, or tools such as JMRI DecoderPro.  

 

 

- Nigel

[pauliebanger]

Dave,

 

Thank you for the positive feedback on my sound projects.

 

Nigel is correct in what he says, I'm just expanding his answers to help broaden your understanding. (you should also have a look at this post http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/103189-the-zimo-swiss-mapping-thread/&do=findComment&comment=2024866

 

'Reserved' simply means 'not currently used for any other purpose' or 'reserved for user customisation'. You can put the cylinder clearing onto F21 without problems.

 

'Cylinder clearing' is of course an automatic sound which plays after Speed Step 1 or greater is selected, but prior to the loco moving, determined by certain starting parameters, and length of time since last halted The manual operation is provided so that a user may extend the cylinder clearing sound to periods when the loco is moving.

 

The value in CV430 only sets the operating F key; as Nigel said, the appropriate Function Output also needs to be specified and in which direction it should operate, in this case FO2 and in both directions. CV432 = 2 and CV434 = 2 with achieve that. (this was already set in the Peckett sound project, so only CV430 needed to be changed).

 

There are a number of other parameters which need to be set for successful simulation of smoke effects, light smoke at standstill, heaviest during deceleration and so on.These are governed by CVs 137, 138 and 139, plus a safety feature which turns off the heater after a selectable duration, CV353. (press F15 to extend operation, but check smoke fluid level).

 

All of these are already set to appropriate values in the sound project, though you can change them to achieve different results if you wish.

 

You are correct, the F23, Guard's Whistle would not be a consideration for a 'goods only' loco. That's why it's out of the way up on F23. LOL

However, you may be surprised at the number of users who specifically request such a sound be included in all sound projects, in order to give the greatest flexibility in the type of trains they can run. I've given up explaining why sound projects for certain loco types would not require a guards' whistle; it's easier all round to include it and let the operator decide whether to not to use it.

 

Best regards

 

Paul

[Daveloco1]

Nigel and Paul

 

Thanks for the replies, at least you both agree LOL.

I'll try the suggested re-mapping tonight when I finish work.

I was more than a little disappointed my smoke installer could not sort out the mapping issue.

I have used the company a number of times before his father retired with no problems at all.

I'll maybe try and do my own lights etc in future and learn a bit more about decoder functions/mapping.

Many thanks guys.

 

Dave

[Daveloco1]

Nigel & Paul

 

Thanks it's smoking!!

Paul from your posting are you suggesting I can change how much 'smoke' is produced and when by altering other cv's?

I've tried changing CV 137 (from 150 to 50) to produce less smoke at standstill (is that the right one?) but get the same volume of smoke.

Have I got this wrong?

 

Dave

[pauliebanger]

Nigel & Paul

 

Thanks it's smoking!!

Paul from your posting are you suggesting I can change how much 'smoke' is produced and when by altering other cv's?

I've tried changing CV 137 (from 150 to 50) to produce less smoke at standstill (is that the right one?) but get the same volume of smoke.

Have I got this wrong?

 

Dave

 

Dave,

 

Yes, that is possible, see

.

CV137 is the correct CV for smoke volume at standstill and should reduce the amount of 'smoke' produced. provided that you have one pole of the heater connected to the blue,common positive, wire from the decoder and the other pole to the brown wire, FO2.

 

What type of smoke generator have you fitted? Does it have 'fan assistance'?

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

Edited April 26, 2018 by pauliebanger

[Daveloco1]

Paul

 

Thanks for reply. I have turned CV137 down from 150 to 50 but it does not seem to have had any effect.

I assume my installer has fitted smoke unit as you are suggesting.

Smoke unit is a sleuthe 99 not fan assisted.

 

Dave

[pauliebanger]

Paul

 

Smoke unit is a sleuthe 99 not fan assisted.

 

Dave

 

LOL. Should be able to get to the answer by itself.

[Daveloco1]

Paul

 

That is what happens when you are rushing putting together a reply ( and that Sherlock Holmes guy is no help at all ) or it's age related.

Is it the type of smoke unit that will not let me amend the cv's?

 

Dave

[pauliebanger]

Is it the type of smoke unit that will not let me amend the cv's?

 

Dave

 

Dave,

 

No, not at all, changes in CV137 should affect the smoke output, this is the type used in the Video clip I posted.

 

Rather, there are other CVs which can impact if a fan-assisted type was deployed, so I needed to eliminate them from this trouble shooting.

 

The Seuthe units are nothing most elaborate than a boiling tube with an internal heating element, so reducing the power (current) supplied by FO2 by reducing the duty cycle of the PWM with CV137 simply boils off the smoke fluid at a slower rate, hence less dense smoke. I would expect that a reduction from 150 to 50 would have a dramatic effect, in fact I'm surprised that you get any smoke at all at that low setting.

 

You could try a very low value or series of values in CV137 to see if that has an impact. If not, there is another problem.

 

CV128 = 72 is the default setting in the sound project, but I suppose it's possible that your installer has changed this. Check that CV128 =72, as this needs to be correct to allow the CVs 137,138 and 139 to have any effect.

 

If the above does not sort this, it suggests to me that there is something else which is interfering with the power supply to the smoke unit. I can't find an internal problem with the sound project, so we really do need to know how the Seuthe unit has been wired to the decoder. Please note that there are two blue wires on a ZIMO MX645R, one is the common positive and is connected to the 8 pin plug, the other is attached to the other end of the decoder and with its grey wire partner form the Stay Alive connections. This blue wire should not be used as a common positive as it is internally connected to the stay alive circuitry, including voltage regulation and charge management.

 

When dealing with third party installations it's best not to make any assumptions, so I think you will need to have a look inside.

 

It's not too difficult to remove the body from the chassis. After removing the relevant screws, the body lifts straight up. Please make a note of the colour of wires connected to the Seuthe unit, trace them back to the decoder/DCC socket, check the colour of the wires which are attached to the decoder then report back.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

Edited April 27, 2018 by pauliebanger

[Daveloco1]

 Paul

 

I'll check CV 128 tonight.

If that's ok I'll lift body and have a peek inside, then report back.

Mental note: In future learn to install your own 'extras', cheaper and probably quicker!

Thanks for your help so far.

 

 Dave

[Daveloco1]

 Paul

 I've checked CV 128 that's ok set at 72 as default.

 Carefully removed body trying not to lose small screws also ok fortunately there is a four plug connecting block between body and chassis.

 Nothing is connect to the blue wire adjacent to it's grey partner from the 'stay alive end of the decoder, so it must be a wiring issue on the main pc board.

 From the smoke unit runs two wires a green and a light blue. The green wire is connected to the brown wire on the decoder bungle of wires (loom?).

 The light blue wire is soldered to the pc board on the next terminal to where the decoder black wire is soldered (away from the decoder grey wire)

  Is this the problem? Either of the two wires ffrom the smoke unit are connected directly to the blue common +ve wire.

  If this is a bit confusing let me know and I'll try and photograph it.

 

 Regards

 

 Dave

[pauliebanger]

  Is this the problem? Either of the two wires ffrom the smoke unit are connected directly to the blue common +ve wire.

  If this is a bit confusing let me know and I'll try and photograph it.

 

 Regards

 

 Dave

 Dave,

 

This bit's confusing! (I presume you meant 'Neither')

 

One wire should connect to the brown wire from the decoder. This seems to be what you have identified.

 

The other wire from the smoke unit should connect to the blue wire from the decoder. It should not be connected to either the red or the black wires from the track pick-ups/decoder.

 

There will be a blue wire from the decoder to the 8 pin DCC plug. This is the common positive to which the other wire (light blue in your example) should be connected.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

Edited April 30, 2018 by pauliebanger

[Nigelcliffe]

 Dave,

 

This bit's confusing! (I presume you meant 'Neither')

 

One wire should connect to the brown wire from the decoder. This seems to be what you have identified.

 

The other wire from the smoke unit should connect to the blue wire from the decoder. It should not be connected to either the red or the black wires from the track pick-ups/decoder.

 

There will be a blue wire from the decoder to the 8 pin DCC plug. This is the common positive to which the other wire (light blue in your example) should be connected.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

 

There's no fundamental reason why one wire to function output (eg. Brown) and one to a track pickup (eg. Black) is wrong.   It just produces half-wave power (compared to using decoder blue wire) at the smoke unit, which will reduce the maximum amount of smoke produced.    But it should still work if the connections are correct, and the decoder is set to use the Brown wire for smoke generation.

 

 

- Nigel

[Daveloco1]

Hi Nigel

 

The unit smokes, the problem/discussion is why I cannot alter the amount of smoke produced when at stand or moving.

It just smokes a lot all the time, Paul has suggested by altering CV 137 where I can affect the smoke volume when the locos not moving.

 

Paul I think my description confused you, sorry.

One wire from the smoke unit (green obviously and an extension to the smoke unit wiring) is connected to the brown wire on the decoder wiring that's OK.

The other wire (light blue again obviously an extension) is connected to the pc board on top of the motor on the same side of the pc board as the grey and black connections

but in a position adjacent to the black wire.

I am going to have another look at the set up today and check I have not missed or mistaken something.

Thanks

 

Dave

[pauliebanger]

Dave,

 

I'm beginning to suspect that in attempting to get things working, your installer has changed some CVs which are causing this problem.

 

You're obviously getting some smoke so the electrical connections are at the very least adequate.

 

I suggect that you re-set the decoder using CV8 = 8. This will return all the CVs to the project default settings, i.e. to a state in which I can have some confidence of the 'starting position' for further advice.

 

You may need to programme CV8 = 8 more than once to get it to 'stick'. Try both POM (Programming on the Main) and Service mode (programming track) is necessary to achieve this. Please note, the value in CV8 will remain as 145 whatever you do as CV8 is a 'read only' CV.

 

When you have done this, you can try re-entering the CVs suggested earlier.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

[Daveloco1]

Paul

Quick up-date. Bit the bullet and removed the light blue wire from it's position and soldered it (carefully) to where the end blue wire from the chip is soldered to the plug to the pc board.

Power on nothing went up in smoke!  Then just to be sure factory re-set CV 8 to 8.

Re-set all CVs as above for moving functions and re-set smoke CVs. Result NOTHING. Late at night abandoned for 'think time'

This morning same, then 'light bulb' moment I had not re-set CV 1 to the same as on my ECoS. Did that, all now works. (It's always the simple things that catch you out.)

Now all I have to do is check I can adjust smoke volume at stand with CV 137. There should be no reason now why it will not work is there?

 

Dave

[Daveloco1]

Paul

All working has it should now thanks for your help.

 

Dave

[pauliebanger]

Paul

All working has it should now thanks for your help.

 

Dave

 

 

Smokin' !