Restoring Triang TT motors

[Richfilth]

I've recently inherited a box of my father's old trains, which have sat around unused since the late 1960's. It's all Triang TT stuff (we live near the Hornby factory), so spare parts and info seem a bit thin on the ground compared to other brands.

 

There are three locomotives (two Jintys and one diesel shunter), which all use the same motor and chassis:

 

 

 

I removed the brushes and cleaned the commutator with contact cleaner, then refitted the brushes. All three motors spin up if you apply power directly to the brushes, but two won't work if the pick-up wire is connected to the brush (the wire that runs to the suppressor and ultimately to the wheel pickup). So it appears that there's a short somewhere on the motors, but I can't for the life of me find it using a multimeter.

 

Here's another shot of the motor:

 

I'm not that experienced with servicing or restoring motors, so if anyone can point me in the right direction it would be greatly appreciated.

[Richfilth]

UPDATE: This forum has a great rubber-duck effect. It's only when you upload a photo and look back at it on a massive monitor that you realise one of the axles is the wrong way round, causing a short! So that's one engine fixed!

[Richfilth]

2/3 working fine now. After replacing the wire from the wheel pickup to the suppressor, the third one can be made to go around a section of track. However, it's really loud (it squeals) and it's nowhere near as fast as the other two. I applied a light machine oil to the worm gear and drive cog but that doesn't seem to have done much, and there's some pretty impressive sparking coming out of the brushes.

 

Any performance suggestions? New brushes? Something more aggressive to clean the commutator? Or is this just the inevitable wear and tear?

[uax6]

Did you clean the commutator segment gaps out? Do this very carefully with a pin, don't press to hard!

 

The bearings of the motor might need oiling, but as I'm not sure what type of motor it is, I can't real comment. If you do oil them, try not to put too much on though, just a drop on the end of a bit of wire will be enough.

 

Andy G

[DCB]

Squealing sounds like the insulation in the armature windings has failed. You could try swapping it between chassis to confirm this.  The armature is the same dia as the X04 I think it shares the same commutator so anyone who offers an X04 rewinding should be able to rewind it. 

 

These are actually nice little mechanisms, better engineered in many ways than the 00 versions though the keeper plates are a weakness wear allowing the gears to de mesh and causing the single start worm to wear/strip .

 

A lot of these TT mechanisms were snapped up by 00 modellers for their single start worms which fit X04s and the chassis was useful for 00 short wheelbase 0-6-0 tanks and the like when fitted with Romfords and 00 axles

[Pebbles]

Firstly the chassis needs totally dismantling and cleaning in white spirit. From the photo it would appear that overheating may have occurred; to establish whether the wire insulation has broken down a meter needs to be applied across the commutator segments. I can't remember the number of winds for the XT60, but for the XO4 it was about 230/240 winds of 38 swg but if in doubt this can be established by measuring the old wire. Similarly the number of winds can be established by unwinding the old wire and counting. Make a note of what wire goes where and the commutator/armature orientation. Whilst the armature and magnet were the same as the XT60 the brush gear location differs by 90 degrees so I don't think that an armature from a  XT60 would be a direct swap.   

[Richfilth]

Thanks for all the tips guys. The chassis in the picture is actually running ok now, but I can pop up a picture of the stubborn one if anyone's interested. I suspect that it needs a more intense cleaning of the commutator since I only gave it a light rub with acetone on a cotton bud.

 

Once I'm sure nothing's fundamentally broken then all three will be stripped down and cleaned thoroughly to make them shine. I have to be careful because the bottom plate (some kind of early plastic/bakelite) has already cracked badly on one chassis so multiple dismantle/rebuild procedures could weaken it further.

 

Any tips on bringing the metalwork up to a shine? I know not to use sandpaper, but any other tips to get the rust off the coupling rods would be nice to hear.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Much more in this thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/124744-when-tt3-was-the-next-big-thing/

 

It's a shame that Triang never thought at the time to try some of the refinement of the TT product in the OO range to see how that went over. I was very surprised on seeing Triang TT fairly recently, that it was markedly superior to their contemporary OO.

[AndyID]

Thanks for all the tips guys. The chassis in the picture is actually running ok now, but I can pop up a picture of the stubborn one if anyone's interested. I suspect that it needs a more intense cleaning of the commutator since I only gave it a light rub with acetone on a cotton bud.

 

Once I'm sure nothing's fundamentally broken then all three will be stripped down and cleaned thoroughly to make them shine. I have to be careful because the bottom plate (some kind of early plastic/bakelite) has already cracked badly on one chassis so multiple dismantle/rebuild procedures could weaken it further.

 

Any tips on bringing the metalwork up to a shine? I know not to use sandpaper, but any other tips to get the rust off the coupling rods would be nice to hear.

People pay real money to have them weathered like that

 

Not sure about acetone. Will it desolve the lacquer insulation on the windings?

[DCB]

I think you are looking at paint for the side frames, they started black and go sort of bronzy as the finish wears off

Edited May 9, 2018 by DavidCBroad

[AndyID]

In the second pic it looks as if the brush spring is clamped tight between the block and the solder tag. The spring should be able to "float" under the screw-head. That equalizes the brush forces.

Edited May 9, 2018 by AndyID

[uax6]

Use meths or petrol to clean your commutators.....

 

Andy g

[Richfilth]

Coming back to this topic: I'm going to attempt to rewind the armature on one of these motors, since I've got nothing to lose. But two questions pop up:

 

1. How much wire/how many turns? I've seen 270 turns and up to 4m of wire used, but that was for the bigger OO scale Triang motors. Are the TT versions any different?

2. What formation for the commutator? Star or Delta? I'm fairly sure it's delta but confirmation would be nice.

[AndyID]

Can you measure the resistance between the commutator segments on one of the good motors, and can you determine the wire gauge  from the bad motor?

 

If it's a delta you should be able to see two wires soldered to each commutator segment (only one if it's a star). If you know the star/delta configuration, the wire gauge and the resistance between segments it possible (with a little Algebra :) ) to determine the length of wire in each winding.

[Richfilth]

Thanks for the tips! Turns out it was delta, and I ended up using 4m of 0.125mm wire per pole to give around 230 turns. I soldered it up, touched the power wires to the wheels and brrzzzzt, round and round it went! So that's one little Jinty brought back from the dead. Thanks to all for your advice and support.