HST TV program

[cheesysmith]

 2part series about the HSTs, channel 5 tuesday 2100hrs.

 

http://www.radiotimes.com/tv-programme/e/gjfrfq/intercity-125-the-train-that-saved-britains-railways--series-1-episode-1/

[LongRail]

Episode 1 was on last night very good with some interesting videos and interviews

[Dunsignalling]

The narrator wouldn't have been my choice, but the programme seemed pretty good on the whole.

 

John

[caradoc]

It was maybe a little harsh on the state of BR pre-HST, but it was good to see respected and knowledgeable people such as Chris Green, and those behind the development of the HST and the preservation of 41001. 

[31A]

It was maybe a little harsh on the state of BR pre-HST, but it was good to see respected and knowledgeable people such as Chris Green, and those behind the development of the HST and the preservation of 41001. 

 

 

I thought that too; I seem to remember thinking Mk2 Air Cons were pretty impressive at the time they came out!  But quite a good programme on the whole. Interesting to hear from people who were involved at the start of the project.

[clecklewyke]

I enjoyed it but I thought a viewer who was not au fait with the HST/APT differences might have been puzzled by the rather random structure of the programme. 

 

A few details caused doubt -

 

The APT prototype was jet-powered but surely it was being designed mainly for use on the curvaceous WCML and so the production models would br electric-powered

 

Was the choice of fabric rather than webbing for the seating really down to the former's better resistance to Stanley knives?

 

They did not explain why a non-tilting HST would be a good stop-gap for the GWR and ECML. Surely it was because BR could not afford to electrify these lines .and they needed improved services fast - and these lines were famously pretty straight race tracks which needed no tilting.

 

The story of the evolution of the HST nose cone did not accord with my previous understanding. I thought that Grange only designed the production version, not the prototype. Am I wrong?

 

I thought that the emphasis on the improved aerodynamics of the nose cone dubious.  I doubt that any streamlining made a significant improvement to the train's performance. I thought that Gresley had discovered this in the 1930s?

 

I thought that they were a bit unkind about the Deltics, The Napier engine was just as  impressive a  piece of ex-marine kit as the Paxman. And the Deltic prototype dated from the 1950s.

 

I was appalled at the effect of dumping excrement at 125mph on the underpinnings of the train. Now I know why they were painted brown!

 

Both the APT and HST were superb trains. It's such a shame that the APT was scuppered by that infamous press run. If only they had tweaked the degree and rate of change of tilt before they invited writers who were just longing for yet another story to denigrate BR. We might have had a British-built Pendolino conquering the world. Well that's the conventional wisdom. No doubt there was much more to it?

 

Maybe the above demonstrates my ignorance!

 

Ian

Edited May 16, 2018 by clecklewyke

[davefrk]

And astonishing that someone came up with the idea of a power car at each end, well who'd have thought it. Oh wait a minute..... The Blue Pullman anyone?

To me it was another program with selective railway history, maybe the consultant was Dan Snow, he's good at writing selective history.

 

Not particularly impressed I'm afraid and as for the narrator.....

 

Dave.

[russ p]

Why at the beginning of the program did they dub a different horn over the HST footage?

I may have been the prototypes horn but certainty not 253/254 horns.

Irritating when TV producers do that.

On the whole though a decent program

[Coppercap]

Why at the beginning of the program did they dub a different horn over the HST footage?

I may have been the prototypes horn but certainty not 253/254 horns.

Irritating when TV producers do that.

On the whole though a decent program

Don't really know why TV producers always have to dub horn sounds on almost every shot of a passing train. If trains sounded their horns as often as they'd have everyone believe, I'm sure there'd be complaints! They show steam engines whistling all the time (often a completely wrong whistle too), even when they are clearly not whistling! I know it's a bit different on the road, but in traffic scenes on TV, road vehicles aren't always sounding horns on (except in Italy perhaps...).

[cheesysmith]

As the person who started this thread, I have to say I`ve not seen it yet. Work meant I`ve recorded it for later viewing.

[BernardTPM]

Worth seeing for some of the historical footage (even if not always quite matching the narration regarding date) and the interviews with those actually involved with the project. That the APT originally arose out of the research into the fundamental rail/wheel interaction at the Derby Technical Centre was missed, also that the Mk.III coach, a fundamental component of the HST, actually pre-dated it and would have happened anyway. Indeed they did in the Mk.IIIa fiorm for the WCML.

The Deltic's use of high-speed engines to achieve a high power/weight ratio was ignored - indeed it came in for criticism for being 'heavy'. Obviously rather ill-informed comment there. If you want heavy with low power look no further than Derby's own original 'Peaks' - 33% heavier for only 70% of the installed horsepower (compared to production Deltics with ETH).

 

And astonishing that someone came up with the idea of a power car at each end, well who'd have thought it. Oh wait a minute..... The Blue Pullman anyone?

The Blue Pullman's end vehicles were not pure power cars/locomotives as they had passenger accomodation, though they were the first complete truly air-conditioned trains (rather than pressure ventialted) to run in the UK. Effectively they were Britain's take on the TEEs. Like the HST though, they benefitted in looking a complete harmonious and contemporary train with everything purpose designed for them right down to the tableware and glasses.

Use of what are effectively two dedicated locomotives to create a high-speed diesel train, one at each end is rare, possibly unique to HST. Really good idea though. As a passenger I don't really want to be sitting on top of noisy motor bogies, do I? While the couplings are semi-permanent they still offer a degree of flexibilty in train make-up which most dedicated EMUs do not.

Edited May 16, 2018 by BernardTPM

[wombatofludham]

For a programme aimed at a general audience, who, let's not forget, think the only trains worth bothering with are Thomas and That Bl**dy Jockstrap, it was quite good. It had a slightly frustrating scattergun approach to the storyline but I think that Joe and Joanna Numpty will have got the key messages even if it was a bit light on fact. Nice to see some real people like Chris Green and Mr Tilt getting a chance to contribute. Peter Purves has become a bit slappable of late so I could have done without him, grumpy old goit.

 

To be honest I'm pleasantly surprised just how many factual railway programmes are coming out of Channel 5. For a commercial broadcaster to be doing so much general interest railway output puts the Public Service broadcasters BBC and state-owned C4 to shame. Yes it can sometimes be slightly buttock-clenching for hard core enthusiasts to listen to some of the commentary but these are first and foremost general public programmes and we all know just how dense the public are when it comes to railways, and so have to be spoon-fed facts in sound-bites.

[Dunsignalling]

Deltics heavy?

 

Their power-to-weight ratio is 33.33 bhp/ton against 32.14 for a Valenta-engined HST power car so what little difference there is actually favours the Class 55..

 

What makes the HST go better is having two of them, so each one has only to shift a maximum of four coaches.

 

John

[Steamport Southport]

For a programme aimed at a general audience, who, let's not forget, think the only trains worth bothering with are Thomas and That Bl**dy Jockstrap, it was quite good. It had a slightly frustrating scattergun approach to the storyline but I think that Joe and Joanna Numpty will have got the key messages even if it was a bit light on fact. Nice to see some real people like Chris Green and Mr Tilt getting a chance to contribute. Peter Purves has become a bit slappable of late so I could have done without him, grumpy old goit.

 

To be honest I'm pleasantly surprised just how many factual railway programmes are coming out of Channel 5. For a commercial broadcaster to be doing so much general interest railway output puts the Public Service broadcasters BBC and state-owned C4 to shame. Yes it can sometimes be slightly buttock-clenching for hard core enthusiasts to listen to some of the commentary but these are first and foremost general public programmes and we all know just how dense the public are when it comes to railways, and so have to be spoon-fed facts in sound-bites.

 

The BBC have already done a documentary on the HST and it was vastly superior. Probably not one for repeating though since it featured a certain Jimmy Saville.

 

You might be able to find it on YouTube though.

 

 

 

Jason

[pheaton]

Couldnt find anything wrong with Chris Tarrant, he's a known railway enthusiast...ok he's not a hard core trainspotter, but i think its better that a normal with an interest in the railways narrates rather then an out and out enthusiast, because they give a more balanced approach to people watching who are not interested in the railways... The only other person i think could have pulled it off without making it cringeworthy would have been Ian Hislop. my only complaint was I think there was far too much reference towards Deltics yes HSTs ousted them on the ECML but the HST was a multi-region train,

 

i think it had more to do with the fact that normals would recognise a deltic over any other locomotive, ive lost count driving a 37 the amount of times a normal has asked me if its a Deltic!

 

Not into deltics...people rave about them but my response was if they were that good they would have lasted a lot longer than 20 years! And every naval engineer ive spoken to/worked with absolutely hates the napier deltic engine!

 

Some footage of high speed running on the GCRN which possibly shouldnt have been broadcast mind

 

But a good program, not the useual out and out mickey take that normally appears to suffice in these sort of the programs.

[PaulRhB]

And astonishing that someone came up with the idea of a power car at each end, well who'd have thought it. Oh wait a minute..... The Blue Pullman anyone?

 

They did point out the HST was a development of existing tech rather than the new approach of APT though so never claimed it as an original idea

 

HST is In the same route availability as the Deltics but having power cars at either end rather than concentrating all the weight up front has slight advantages for track and structure loadings at top speed. The main advantage is the two cabs either end so you save time and problems with running round and coupling problems, also an advantage if a wrong direction movement is needed. The totally separate control systems also provide a slight advantage over Deltics as one unit can totally fail and be dragged home.

Not a bad programme and nice to see the prototype group getting a bit of publicity too.

[Hroth]

The BBC have already done a documentary on the HST and it was vastly superior. Probably not one for repeating though since it featured a certain Jimmy Saville.

 

You might be able to find it on YouTube though.

 

 

 

Jason

They last broadcast it a few months before the Saville revelations started to come out.

[Steamport Southport]

I found it earlier on YouTube.

 

But it says "This content not available in your country due to copyright reasons".

 

If you really wanted to find it then it's out there. Probably not wise to put a link to it though.

 

 

 

Jason

[Hroth]

Just watched the first programme.

 

Archive footage, great!

Chris Tarrant, Ok.

Historical sense, so-so.

 

but, taking the biscuit for absolute, hair pulling annoyance, the b####y script.  Written at a 10yo level, rambling, repetitive, inconsequential.  Everything seemed to be phrased in the present tense, and you could tell when the ad breaks were coming up, Tarrant would go all portentious and pose a question.  I was getting to the point when I expected him to offer either simplification or to ask a friend.....

 

I'll watch the second, but perhaps through gritted teeth. Well, not THROUGH my teeth, but I'm sure you get the point! 

[37114]

I watched it and thought it was one of the better "railway related programs aimed at normals" that I have seen, I thought Chris Tarrant did an ok job, although I got annoyed about the attempt to hype things up before each ad break (along the lines of the Eddie Stobart program of "will Dave get to Tesco Doncaster before 12:00 or will his 28 tonnes of chicken be gong in the bin?") I am not an HST expert so didn't pick up on some of the finer historical events being out but will watch part 2. I guess it was inevitable they would put down the Deltics as the story they were telling was how revolutionary the HST's were to what went before....

[Hroth]

I watched it and thought it was one of the better "railway related programs aimed at normals" that I have seen, I thought Chris Tarrant did an ok job, although I got annoyed about the attempt to hype things up before each ad break (along the lines of the Eddie Stobart program of "will Dave get to Tesco Doncaster before 12:00 or will his 28 tonnes of chicken be gong in the bin?") I am not an HST expert so didn't pick up on some of the finer historical events being out but will watch part 2. I guess it was inevitable they would put down the Deltics as the story they were telling was how revolutionary the HST's were to what went before....

As mentioned by others above, the HST wasn't revolutionary in concept, it had already been done with the Blue Pullman, which was just going out of service when the HST design effort started.  It improved the concept in detail, with more powerful engines in the power cars (the Pullmans were rather underpowered), better separation between the public and the power cars, and it probably benefitted from the track dynamics work carried out for APT.  And of course, there was ordinary second class accommodation, unlike the Pullman.  It was interesting to see that  the archive footage of the interior concentrated on the more spacious first class accommodation!

 

Just a thought, HST might have happened sooner if the conceptual link from the elite service of the Blue Pullman had been made earlier...