GTR Timetable Change 2018

[roundhouse]

I'll believe it when I see it...

Same here.

 

My other half is now on a delayed Tattenham Corner service as the driver was delayed travelling on a Thameslink service. The 17.33 Eastbourne Southern service has been cancelled so the one she is on is wedged now.

 

Edit

 

The Tattenham Corner train was so late that she would miss the bus so she got off at ECR and waited for the 17.57  Vic  to Three Bridges service.

 

However the smoke alarm has been activated in coach 11 so its still at ECR and wedged. Eventually departed 14 minutes late and then even later following a Caterham service and thus delaying the following one that njee20 is probably on.

 

I must help her complete her delay repays for the last few weeks. It does mount up even at £2 a trip.

Edited July 9, 2018 by roundhouse

[cromptonnut]

Just received this by email from SWR.  Interesting.

 

Update on timetable changes for December 2018

Since before we started the South Western Railway franchise, we have been preparing for a major timetable change in December 2018 to provide customers with access to additional services and extra capacity throughout the day.
 
We are therefore disappointed that we will not be implementing any changes to the December 2018 timetable and instead rolling over the May 2018 timetable. Preparations to deliver the extra services, capacity improvements and reduced journey times started well before we took over the SWR franchise and will continue as we are determined to deliver what our customers and stakeholders expect.
 
We are mindful of the disruption to customers that happened with other major timetable changes elsewhere in May 2018 and despite SWR’s desire to deliver the increased capacity and extra services as soon as possible to customers, it has been decided at a national level that a period of stability is needed.
 
Even without timetable changes in December 2018, we are preparing to deliver additional capacity for the benefit of customers and, over the coming weeks, will be seeking to confirm plans as to how the 90 additional Class 442 vehicles which are presently being refurbished, can be progressively introduced into service in the existing timetable to allow other trains to be cascaded elsewhere on our network. As part of the refurbishment of the Class 444/450 fleets, we will also be delivering an increase in standard class seating capacity through internal reconfiguration of these vehicles which will progressively increase capacity through to Spring 2019.
 
We will continue to work with Network Rail, the Department for Transport and insight from customers and stakeholders to implement the changes to our future timetables and ensure maximum benefit with minimal disruption to our customers.

Yours sincerely,
 
Andy Mellors
Managing Director

Edited July 9, 2018 by cromptonnut

[31A]

Just received this by email from SWR.  Interesting.

 

 

I wonder whether this will extend to timetable changes planned for December 2018 in other parts of the country, as well?

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Seeing the disastrous publicity GTR have had over this, not helped by the previous long-running industrial dispute, I can see why SWR are giving any significant timetable change a really wide berth! I suspect it will be quite a long time before a timetable change of this significance is carried out again.

[The Stationmaster]

I wonder whether this will extend to timetable changes planned for December 2018 in other parts of the country, as well?

 

Could well be or equally it might well be that NR simply aren't up to doing the whole network job for December so have put SWR's change to one side in order to concentrate on some other part of the network.  

 

The intimation I read in it is that NR aren't up to doing the job properly in a timely manner or 'somebody' is concerned that they aren't up to it.  NR should have published the new WTT on 08 June, i.e. some 4 weeks ago, and the operator appeal period should have ended last Friday.  So if those timescales have been met there should be no worries at all about introducing the timetable on 09 December.  And it should not be overlooked that this is the major timetable change date so quite logical for SWR to be working towards it and NR to be staffed to deal with the workload required for a major change.  

 

The electronic transfer of TT information for customer information systems doesn't need to be available until the end of August so there should be plenty of time left to do the work.  All of this, plus the coincidence of the dateof the email and the end of the appeal period, suggests to me that NR has fallen short or is simply not happy with the work it has done.

[4630]

This press release issued by the Rail Delivery Group indicates which TOCs will and will not be changing their timetables in December 2018.

 

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/media-centre/press-releases/2018/469774201-2018-07-09.html

 

The final bullet point of the press release is particularly 'disappointing';

 

 

• This announcement means that returning to a position of confirming timetables to customers 12 weeks ahead where these are altered at weekends, known as informed traveller, will take longer than previously planned. The industry will be working hard to return to the full 12 weeks ahead confirmation window as quickly as possible and hopes to do so by May 2019.

[The Stationmaster]

 

This press release issued by the Rail Delivery Group indicates which TOCs will and will not be changing their timetables in December 2018.

 

https://www.raildeliverygroup.com/media-centre/press-releases/2018/469774201-2018-07-09.html

 

The final bullet point of the press release is particularly 'disappointing';

 

 

• This announcement means that returning to a position of confirming timetables to customers 12 weeks ahead where these are altered at weekends, known as informed traveller, will take longer than previously planned. The industry will be working hard to return to the full 12 weeks ahead confirmation window as quickly as possible and hopes to do so by May 2019.

 

 

So basically Network Rail has admitted, and made public, its inability to do the jobs that it is supposed to do.  Not can't it manage to deal with the principal timetable change date for the whole national rail network but it can't even manage the relatively simple task of getting information onto Informed Traveller systems as late as 12 weeks before its operational date; what a shambles!

 

Note for NR - the horizon for releasing timetable change information to public availability throughout the rest of the European rail network is 26 weeks, and in all but very rare instances they have no trouble in achieving it (apart from the Italians).  Oh and through the European Timetable Conference NR is actually signed-up to that 26 week horizon, I wonder if it realises that?

[4630]

I don't suppose I should be surprised that the main stream media don't appear to have made much of the press release - their focus, understandably, has been elsewhere; World Cup, Amesbury, the machinations of our politicians, to name only 3 topics vying for column space.  

 

As far as they're concerned it's 'just another railway story'.  I hope that the specialist 'railway media' will make more of it and particularly that final bullet point.

 

The cynic in me feels that NR and by implications the TOCs too, would be very happy to see the 12 week confirmation done away with.  The longer that it's not in place the easier it will become for them to argue successfully to the DaFT that its permanent loss would be of little detriment to passengers.  

[The Stationmaster]

I don't suppose I should be surprised that the main stream media don't appear to have made much of the press release - their focus, understandably, has been elsewhere; World Cup, Amesbury, the machinations of our politicians, to name only 3 topics vying for column space.  

 

As far as they're concerned it's 'just another railway story'.  I hope that the specialist 'railway media' will make more of it and particularly that final bullet point.

 

The cynic in me feels that NR and by implications the TOCs too, would be very happy to see the 12 week confirmation done away with.  The longer that it's not in place the easier it will become for them to argue successfully to the DaFT that its permanent loss would be of little detriment to passengers.  

 

Yes, I do wonder about your final point. It would suggest that those who would favour it, particularly in NR have little idea of what it would actually mean although most TOCs should be all too aware of the implications.

 

For NR it should be a relatively simple matter to achieve although it would more than likely involve additional staff cost.  But equally much of any additional staff cost could be avoided by relatively simple organisational changes and people actually doing their jobs properly - which of course then relies on a management which understands how that could be done and which appreciates that the main drivers of 'short notice' TT changes are Bank Holidays and engineering work.  Oddly the bulk of the continental administrations seem to have no problem at all with this concept and seasonal traffic variation was in fact the main driver in moving the permanent timetable change date to December (the British retention of a May 'secondary change date' is as much a hangover from the past as it is something supported by any kind of trainplanning/timetabling work flow logic).  The simple fact is that if you are to have an annual timetable you have to plan it as exactly that and not as something you will forever be altering and amending and spending what can be considerable amounts of money in order to do so.

[roundhouse]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44799659

[John M Upton]

[phil-b259]

Seeing the disastrous publicity GTR have had over this, not helped by the previous long-running industrial dispute, I can see why SWR are giving any significant timetable change a really wide berth! I suspect it will be quite a long time before a timetable change of this significance is carried out again.

 

I'm given to understand via comments on the London Reconnections website that SWR have their own problem looming which means dropping their previously proposed December timetable changes actually is something they are very much in favour of internally.

 

Namely the 442 traction replacement programme is heavily delayed due to safety worries (3x 455s fitted with the same design have suffered fires / explosions in the past couple of years) and EMC issues (1980s era electronics that are being retained to keep costs down), plus the removal of the guards office in the 450s running late. Had the proposed Timetable alterations gone ahead then AWR would sudden;y have found themselves facing serious problems.

[phil-b259]

So basically Network Rail has admitted, and made public, its inability to do the jobs that it is supposed to do.  Not can't it manage to deal with the principal timetable change date for the whole national rail network but it can't even manage the relatively simple task of getting information onto Informed Traveller systems as late as 12 weeks before its operational date; what a shambles!

 

Note for NR - the horizon for releasing timetable change information to public availability throughout the rest of the European rail network is 26 weeks, and in all but very rare instances they have no trouble in achieving it (apart from the Italians).  Oh and through the European Timetable Conference NR is actually signed-up to that 26 week horizon, I wonder if it realises that?

 

At least its owned up to its failings - unlike a certain Mr Grayling or the dead hand of Whitehall which continues to be in denial of its own cock ups.

[phil-b259]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44799659

I believe the GTR employee involved has a track record of upsetting people. I seem to recall he volunteered at the Bluebell for a short while (around 5 or 10 years ago), but left in a huff after rubbing plenty of folk up the wrong way and trying to change long standing arrangements to suit his way of doing things.

 

A friend has commented on Facebook that the Southern staff at Victoria are quite liking some of the Twitter responses from the public over the issue which is perhaps a little revealing.

Edited July 12, 2018 by phil-b259

[caradoc]

I believe the GTR employee involved has a track record of upsetting people. I seem to recall he volunteer at the Bluebell for a short while, but left in a huff after rubbing plenty of folk up the wrong way and trying to change long standing arrangements to suit his way of doing things.

 

A friend has commented on Facebook that the Southern staff at Victoria are quite liking some of the Twitter responses from the public over the issue.

 

What he was saying was strictly speaking correct, but you would think the absolute last thing a GTR Manager would do in the current climate is upset passengers even more than they are already !

[locoholic]

As we are nearly two months into this timetabling fiasco, is there any sign that things are actually improving?

[locoholic]

I believe the GTR employee involved has a track record of upsetting people. I seem to recall he volunteer at the Bluebell for a short while (around 5 or 10 years ago), but left in a huff after rubbing plenty of folk up the wrong way and trying to change long standing arrangements to suit his way of doing things.

A friend has commented on Facebook that the Southern staff at Victoria are quite liking some of the Twitter responses from the public over the issue which is perhaps a little revealing.

A few weeks ago I said that to succeed in management the primary requirements were a thick skin and a brass neck. The "gentleman" in the news item seems to confirm my point, but I distinctly recall someone on here saying I was wrong. I wonder who that person was?

[phil-b259]

A few weeks ago I said that to succeed in management the primary requirements were a thick skin and a brass neck. The "gentleman" in the news item seems to confirm my point, but I distinctly recall someone on here saying I was wrong. I wonder who that person was?

 

Rather than making snide remarks it would be more useful to actually quote the relevant post in full - because I have no idea what you are going on about.

 

However, a bully is still a bully however much 'power and success' they may have accrued in life and I see no reason to celebrate such qualities in people.

[jim.snowdon]

I'm given to understand via comments on the London Reconnections website that SWR have their own problem looming which means dropping their previously proposed December timetable changes actually is something they are very much in favour of internally.

 

Namely the 442 traction replacement programme is heavily delayed due to safety worries (3x 455s fitted with the same design have suffered fires / explosions in the past couple of years) and EMC issues (1980s era electronics that are being retained to keep costs down), plus the removal of the guards office in the 450s running late. Had the proposed Timetable alterations gone ahead then AWR would sudden;y have found themselves facing serious problems.

On top of which, SWR are in a contractual relationship with NR/DfT. The franchise, from what I hear of those on the inside, has significant problems in delivering what was committed, so any external event attributable to the other party will come as welcome relief by way of transferring contract liability away from them.

 

Jim

[roundhouse]

What he was saying was strictly speaking correct, but you would think the absolute last thing a GTR Manager would do in the current climate is upset passengers even more than they are already !

And then to plonk his bags on the adjacent seat so no other first class or GTR member of staff can use that seat. Totally contradicts the announcement OBS often put out to keep bags off seats so others can use them.

People like him will only make matters worse between Tocs and passenger's, sorry customers but then GTR don't keep the revenue do they.

[njee20]

Intrigued that Southern specifically sent out an email about the interim timetables yesterday (not Thameslink ones) and the improvements it will bring, with a link. Yet the timetables they link to show no revisions whatsoever on any of them, all valid from 20th May!

[locoholic]

Rather than making snide remarks it would be more useful to actually quote the relevant post in full - because I have no idea what you are going on about.

 

However, a bully is still a bully however much 'power and success' they may have accrued in life and I see no reason to celebrate such qualities in people.

From the Oxenholme - Windermere thread...

 

"locoholic, on 13 Jun 2018 - 06:39, said:

To survive in the corporate world often what is needed is a thick skin and a brass neck. Wisdom is not essential,

 

phil-b259:

 

I disagree. A person who tries to run things without the benefit of wisdom and relies on a thick skin / brass neck is basically a bully. If you are going to take a certain course of action you have a moral obligation to be wise as to the potential consequences and be able to address them."

 

So you have a short memory. The guy in the news story is obviously lacking the wisdom required to anticipate the media sh!tstorm that his actions precipitated, and yet there he is, in a senior position on the railway. If he is even slightly typical of the people in the TOCs and NR, maybe that explains the embarrassing state of services on some parts of the network?

 

Hence my reluctance to take everything that is posted on here by present or former railway as 100% sensible. Also, some (!) of your posts aren't exactly diplomatic, so I think it's a bit rich for you to accuse me of being "snide". But I can live with it.

[cromptonnut]

Most senior managers get there not on merit and skills, but on connections and backstabbing other people as they climb over them on their way up the corporate ladder.  It's why most large companies (not just the railways) are in such a mess these days.  Especially when they are 'outsiders' coming into roles because of experience in other industries, so they have no idea of what the people below them are doing, yet they issue instructions to change things they don't understand and cut back on staff (which cost) so they can hit their targets and get their bonuses, completely unaware of the struggles of those they are supposed to be 'managing', having never done the job themselves.

[justin1985]

As we are nearly two months into this timetabling fiasco, is there any sign that things are actually improving?

 

No. Just as many cancellations and long delays either side of the core (presumably waiting for pilot drivers) as when it first began. And of course that is on top of the fact that the majority of the May timetable has been "disappeared" from the timetable. Some elements are predictable - like 2 of the Bedford services through East Croydon each hour being cancelled, but many more are random.

 

With the cancellations on top of the disappeared trains, gaps of 50 minutes between trains between London Bridge and Blackfriars are still common. It seems like every remaining Southern fast service to London Bridge is making additional calls at Norwood Junction this week to replace the Thameslink service.

 

The July 15th timetable seems to have a much more even distribution of trains than the current thinned out timetable, but still a lot more than seem to be running this week. If they can't run their current thinned out timetable, they haven't got a hope in hell of running the July timetable. 

 

Comments on Railforums.co.uk seem to suggest the route learning backlog has actually got worse as they struggle to run what they can rather than divert shifts to support training, little route learning (or none, some posts seem to suggest) has actually taken place.

 

 

I cant see any improvement after 15th July....route learning is still suspended

 

Justin

Edited July 12, 2018 by justin1985

[phil-b259]

From the Oxenholme - Windermere thread...

 

"locoholic, on 13 Jun 2018 - 06:39, said:

To survive in the corporate world often what is needed is a thick skin and a brass neck. Wisdom is not essential,

 

phil-b259:

 

I disagree. A person who tries to run things without the benefit of wisdom and relies on a thick skin / brass neck is basically a bully. If you are going to take a certain course of action you have a moral obligation to be wise as to the potential consequences and be able to address them."

 

So you have a short memory. The guy in the news story is obviously lacking the wisdom required to anticipate the media sh!tstorm that his actions precipitated, and yet there he is, in a senior position on the railway. If he is even slightly typical of the people in the TOCs and NR, maybe that explains the embarrassing state of services on some parts of the network?

 

Hence my reluctance to take everything that is posted on here by present or former railway as 100% sensible. Also, some (!) of your posts aren't exactly diplomatic, so I think it's a bit rich for you to accuse me of being "snide". But I can live with it.

 

OK perhaps 'snide' was perhaps not the most suitable adjective to use but the general gist still stands that it is far more preferable to actually provide clarity as to what the issue is. We don't all have photographic minds and remember everything we have posted for the past 6 weeks or whatever.

 

However I confess to still not understanding what the issue is with my previous post which quite clearly illustrated that relying only on 'a thick skin and a brass neck' is insufficient to be a success in your career as a whole.

 

Equally its a bit rich to try and insinuate that Mr Boon is 'typical' of railway industry employees - while there are no doubt others with similarly skewed viewpoints, the reality is most are not. You also can find plenty of examples of 'Mr Boon' attitudes in other industries if you look hard enough.

 

Finally as I have mentioned before, like quite a few of those struggling with Autistic tendencies I like to speak my mind on matters I find important. If they come over as being undiplomatic there is not much I can do about it - in any case I'm through with hiding in the corner in case I upset anyone.....