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A Jubilee for the Jubilee?

2mm Finescale 2FS Peco Jubilee LMS



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#1 Nick Mitchell

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 22:00

I was chatting to Andy Hanson on Thursday evening and he mentioned that Peter's Spares are currently listing various PECO Jubilee body parts on their website.

 

We both confessed to having examples of these in our gloat boxes. Mine has been there for over a decade, along with a Nigel Hunt chassis etch and all the bits and pieces necessary to complete the model... with the exception of that vital spark motivation to actually build it.

 

Well, Andy has now supplied said spark - a challenge to complete a finescale Jubilee in time for the 2mm Scale Association's Diamond Jubilee.

 

Apparently Nigel has sold over 100 of his etches, so there must be plenty of others sitting in gloat boxes up and down the land... but if you're feeling left out, Nigel has got plenty left, which no doubt he will have for sale at Chelford next weekend. (He also has a version to fit the Farish Jubilee.)

 

Anyway, the gauntlet has been laid down, so if you need an excuse to get cracking on a loco project, join us in the Jubilee Jubilee Challenge! (and post your progress here). It would be amazing if there were 60 converted Jubilees at the 60th anniversary, but even if there are only 2 (so long as they are mine and Andy's!) I'll be happy.

 

I'll be starting in a couple of weeks (once I've finished exam marking), but in the meantime the bits are all ready to begin...

 

IMG_6283.JPG

 

 


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#2 2mm Andy

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 21:02

Hi Nick,

 

As long as you don't start fitting working valve gear to your loco (like the 9F) then i'll have a go at building one. My first major task will be to work out which of the Jubilees the Peco body can represent - this class of loco does seem to be something of a minefield of detail differences.

 

Anyway, I've just been sorting through boxes of components working out what I've already got and what I will need to pick-up at Chelford on Saturday.

 

Andy


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#3 65179

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 21:41

Andy,

Choose whichever Jubilee you like. The Peco Jubilee was fantastic for its time compared with most of the contemporary offerings, but it's a hotchpotch of the SFB and LFB variants. It has a short firebox and lacks the mudhole covers of the LFB variant, but the boiler bands are positioned like the long firebox version. Also the loco has the early split saddle and smokebox front rivets unlike any Jubilee.

Simon (still part way through finescaling Farish Jubilees)
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#4 xm607

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 08:11

It was very good for the time and adaptable, I built a Royal Scot, Patriot, various Black Fives and an 8F from the the Jubilee you but couldn't get away with it now though, and I described them in the Railway Modeller, funny though I had them down at the club last night to see if they still worked and they did after all those years.

Steve.


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#5 2mm Andy

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 09:43

Andy,

Choose whichever Jubilee you like. The Peco Jubilee was fantastic for its time compared with most of the contemporary offerings, but it's a hotchpotch of the SFB and LFB variants. It has a short firebox and lacks the mudhole covers of the LFB variant, but the boiler bands are positioned like the long firebox version. Also the loco has the early split saddle and smokebox front rivets unlike any Jubilee.

Simon (still part way through finescaling Farish Jubilees)

 

Thanks Simon. It's worse than I thought then. I think it might just get built as 45743 'Diamond Jubilee', which in my world was constructed after the Harrow accident to replace the wrecked 45637 'Windward Islands' using some spare parts that Crewe found in the stores....

 

Andy


Edited by 2mm Andy, 15 May 2018 - 09:49 .

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#6 DavidB

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 09:59

It was very good for the time and adaptable, I built a Royal Scot, Patriot, various Black Fives and an 8F from the the Jubilee you but couldn't get away with it now though, and I described them in the Railway Modeller, funny though I had them down at the club last night to see if they still worked and they did after all those years.

Steve.

 

Slightly off-thread, but do you have any photos of them Steve?  I used to love seeing how people adapted the Peco product - I remember an impressive layout in RM based on Mallaig that had several Black 5 conversions, while I converted my own many years ago into one of the SR-based Standard 5s with the large BR1F tender.

 

Looking forward very much to seeing Nick's build.

 

David



#7 queensquare

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 18:28

What a splendid idea, I shall watch with interest. I don't have a Peco Jubilee body but I do have a Bachmann Scot and one of Nigel's chassis etches but I wont be starting that any time soon - I have far too many projects on the go already!

 

Jerry



#8 Nick Mitchell

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Posted 15 May 2018 - 20:00

As long as you don't start fitting working valve gear to your loco (like the 9F) then i'll have a go at building one.

 

No fear Andy - This is for the Diamond Jubilee - not the Platinum!


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#9 xm607

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 18:33

Slightly off-thread, but do you have any photos of them Steve?  I used to love seeing how people adapted the Peco product - I remember an impressive layout in RM based on Mallaig that had several Black 5 conversions, while I converted my own many years ago into one of the SR-based Standard 5s with the large BR1F tender.

 

Looking forward very much to seeing Nick's build.

 

David

 

 

Here are the locos on top of my article in the March 1988 R.M., at the left hand side back is the B1 conversion using an old Westwater & Kirk kit, they also did a V1,

 

DSCF9333.JPG

 

DSCF9328.JPG

 

DSCF9332.JPG

 

 

Steve.


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#10 DavidB

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Posted 16 May 2018 - 20:23

Very nice - thanks for sharing!

David

#11 65179

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Posted 27 May 2018 - 21:39

Having said the Peco Jubilee isn't quite up to modern standards, it is still much improved when Nigel's chassis kit is added.  Having dug it out of my stash of unfinished stuff (not sure if I'm quite at Jerry Clifford standards, but I do seem to have a lot of unfinished or 'in progress' models!) I may even finish this off:

 

PecoJubilee1.jpg

 

 

Simon


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#12 Crosland

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 16:03

Nigel's instructions for the Jubilee mention using valve ends from the Black 5 castings, but I can't identify these from the set of castings I have just bought from shop 3

 

Black5Castings.jpg

 

Is ther more than one version of the Balck 5 castings? Am I missing some parts?

 

Andrew

 



#13 65179

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 16:36

The parts you have with the smokebox door and piston/crosshead are the bits you want. For the B5 Bob etched large holes in the cylinder ends so that the whole valve chest (?) could be one piece with the fronts, rear and valve crosshead guide. For a Farish Jubilee chassis you either chop these up or open up the holes to take the one piece casting. If you take the latter option try and migrate the hole up and out slightly. That way you end up with a set of cylinders that look more Jubilee than B5. That will also mean less filing/hacking will be needed to get room for your valve gear behind the valve guide. On my Farish Jubilee I used turned parts and the valve guides Farish supplied - easier to just stick the valve guide on out of line, but giving more room for the joint at the end of the radius rod.

You can do the same hole enlarging for a Peco Jubilee chassis. However unless Nigel has altered the etch you can only use the B5 crossheads on the Farish replacement chassis without modification.

Simon

Edited by 65179, 30 May 2018 - 17:08 .


#14 65179

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 17:20

If anyone else fancies the challenge of doing a 2mm Jubilee, has no previous experience of building outside cylindered locos and hasn't bought a Peco Jubilee body then I'd recommend the Farish body and Farish replacement chassis option. It has lots of bits the Peco one doesn't, like slidebars, that makes it easier to build. Also bear in mind that the Peco and Farish bodies have different wheelbases so the etches can't be used interchangeably.

Despite my soft spot for LNER B7s, Jubilees are my favourite locos so a whole load of 2mm ones would be great to see!

Simon
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#15 Crosland

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 18:13

The parts you have with the smokebox door and piston/crosshead are the bits you want. For the B5 Bob etched large holes in the cylinder ends so that the whole valve chest (?) could be one piece with the fronts, rear and valve crosshead guide. For a Farish Jubilee chassis you either chop these up or open up the holes to take the one piece casting. If you take the latter option try and migrate the hole up and out slightly. That way you end up with a set of cylinders that look more Jubilee than B5. That will also mean less filing/hacking will be needed to get room for your valve gear behind the valve guide. On my Farish Jubilee I used turned parts and the valve guides Farish supplied - easier to just stick the valve guide on out of line, but giving more room for the joint at the end of the radius rod.

You can do the same hole enlarging for a Peco Jubilee chassis. However unless Nigel has altered the etch you can only use the B5 crossheads on the Farish replacement chassis without modification.

Simon

 

Thank you, I understand now. I saw these parts on the B5 instructions but thought the Jubilee was different. I need to look closer at Nigel's pictures.

 

Yes, first time outside valve gear!



#16 Nick Mitchell

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 22:18

... the ... Farish replacement chassis option ... has lots of bits the Peco one doesn't, like slidebars, that makes it easier to build.

 

A black 5 slidebar etch is now available from Shop 3, which should save having to file one from plain rail as the PECO chassis instructions suggest.

One could always buy a Farish etch anyway and pinch the extra bits to use on the Peco Jubilee - the added price of one of these is probably similar to the extra cost of a Farish body over the PECO one.

 

Thinking further along those lines (and with cash to burn) the are some tasty looking bits on the Farish Black 5 chassis etch (NEW in Shop 3) that might be much more complicated to build than Nigel's way of doing things.

I'm thinking here of the radius rod and lifting arm - Nigel has done them as one piece, when in reality there were separate bits... which could be made to reverse... (No! I promised I wouldn't!)

I'm trying to work out from looking at completed Jubilees whether you can actually tell they're simplified - hidden as they are in the shadows under the running plate.

Still, I never like to go for the easy option when I can find a more challenging alternative :)

 

A potential snag is that unless people have them in the gloat box, the 1:38 worm gear set is not currently in production.

I do have one, but I have earmarked it for a different project.

Theoretically they are still available from Ultrascale, but the following notice is on the front page of their website:

Due to my current delivery time and some personal issues that are having an ongoing impact on it.
I have taken the decision to put a hold on taking any more orders at this time, as it would not be fair to make customers wait any longer then the currently stated delivery time. I will look at the order situation as an ongoing process, but feel I need to deal with the current orders that I have first.
It should be noted that the 'products' section of this web site has been disabled at this time. Sorry for any problems this may cause.
 
The good news is that an alternative gear setup will work - 30:1 worm in combination with M0.3 16:25 spur gears using the hole in the frames that looks as though it was designed for such a purpose.
The bad news if you were thinking of doing a Farish version is that the gear tower and extra hole are missing from the frames.
The really bad news is that both the 30:1 gear sets I bought at Chelford (for this and another project) have the skew cut in the wrong direction on the brass gear, meaning it won't mesh with the worm!
 
I'm still buried under a pile of exam scripts left to mark, but I'm hoping to make a proper start on my Jubilee at the end of next week. I might try and film my hands doing bits of it...


#17 65179

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 22:36

Those bits are slightly different on a Jubilee. Just not very different and the Black 5 parts are the closest you can get without turning your own.

On the Jubilee the valve chest extensions (someone else may be able to give the proper technical term) are 15 inches diameter at their widest point. Both in front of and to the rear of the main cylinder body these widest bits are 12cm long with a slightly smaller diameter 5.2cm long section between them and the main cylinder body. Apologies for the mixed units. Measurements taken from Bahamas.

#18 Crosland

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Posted 05 June 2018 - 20:10

I have a 38:1 gear set but, without thinking, I ordered a metric gear muff, 3-102b.

 

Am I correct in thinking that 3-102 and or 3-102a will take the gear with 1/8" bore and position it centrally?

 

Andrew



#19 2mm Andy

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 09:13

I have a 38:1 gear set but, without thinking, I ordered a metric gear muff, 3-102b.

 

Am I correct in thinking that 3-102 and or 3-102a will take the gear with 1/8" bore and position it centrally?

 

Andrew

3-102 definitely will as the smaller diameter for the 14t gear is at one end. I can't remember which way round the diameters are machined on 3-102 (there is a flange machined part-way along the muff to separate the two) but I think you'll be OK.

 

Andy



#20 Chris Higgs

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 10:48

 

The really bad news is that both the 30:1 gear sets I bought at Chelford (for this and another project) have the skew cut in the wrong direction on the brass gear, meaning it won't mesh with the worm!

 

 

That's going to cause some puzzlement amongst people not so familar with the intracacies of wormwheels! And a rather large pile of scrap gears if they are not a unique abberation.

 

I remember there used to be some spur gears cut to mesh with the worms i.e. with the skew in the other direction.  That was a long time ago.

 

Chris



#21 Nick Mitchell

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 14:17

3-102 definitely will as the smaller diameter for the 14t gear is at one end. I can't remember which way round the diameters are machined on 3-102 (there is a flange machined part-way along the muff to separate the two) but I think you'll be OK.

 

Andy

 

I've just measured a 3-102a I have in stock - the long side is 1/8" for mounting an imperial worm wheel.

I think I would prefer one of these to using a 3.102, since without the 14t gear mounted on the 2mm section, there is hardly any material in the muff.

 

P.S. I wonder why the metric gear muffs don't have flanges...

 

Nick.



#22 2mm Andy

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 14:36

 

P.S. I wonder why the metric gear muffs don't have flanges...

 

Nick.

 

I don't know, but it has been suggested to the product team that having a flange on them would be useful when putting gears on. Hopefully the design can be modified to include one.

 

Andy



#23 2mm Andy

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 15:15

That's going to cause some puzzlement amongst people not so familar with the intracacies of wormwheels! And a rather large pile of scrap gears if they are not a unique abberation.

 

I remember there used to be some spur gears cut to mesh with the worms i.e. with the skew in the other direction.  That was a long time ago.

 

Chris

 

Nick made the Sales Officer and the Shop 3 shopkeeper aware of the problem as soon as he realised, so we can hopefully avoid any more of the suspect gearsets being sold until things can be investigated.

 

The skew cut spur gears you refer to were I think made by Ultrascale, so a different supplier, and as you say, a long time ago.

 

Andy



#24 Crosland

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Posted 06 June 2018 - 20:16

Thanks for the answers re muffs. I have ordered one of each just to be sure :)

 

Andrew



#25 Chris Higgs

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Posted 07 June 2018 - 09:57

 

 

Thinking further along those lines (and with cash to burn) the are some tasty looking bits on the Farish Black 5 chassis etch (NEW in Shop 3) that might be much more complicated to build than Nigel's way of doing things.

I'm thinking here of the radius rod and lifting arm - Nigel has done them as one piece, when in reality there were separate bits... which could be made to reverse... (No! I promised I wouldn't!)

I'm trying to work out from looking at completed Jubilees whether you can actually tell they're simplified - hidden as they are in the shadows under the running plate.

Still, I never like to go for the easy option when I can find a more challenging alternative :)

 

 

 

There is bascially two sets of the valvegear on the Black 5 chassis etch (in case you lose bits in the carpet) so if you have an etch and are careful you will have bits left over. However it is worth pointing out that almost all of the valvegear parts are subtly different between a Jubilee and a Black 5.

 

I am contemplating doing the Black 5 motion parts as a separate etch as they are identical to those that will be required for an 8F.

 

Chris 


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