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Hornby Stanier Coaches "Dragging"


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  • RMweb Gold

 

I am trying to fathom out as to why all three Hornby ex-LMS Stanier coaches purchased new within the last 6 months from different sources are afflicted with the same running issue.

 

The models - R4234B, R4235C and R4236C have such a high rolling resistance that when one is tapped with a finger, it comes to a stand amost immediately, almost as if the wheels have coach lighting pick-ups rubbing on them.

 

When inverted, the wheels appear to spin relatively freely but on the road, the drag is so great that the three vehicles coupled to a Bachmann "Porthole" and a CCT have caused a 5MT to loose its feet on level track!

 

The brake blocks have been checked and there's no obvious binding, however the axles do appear to have very little side play within the bogies. I've gently teased out the bogie frames to effect more freedom but there's no improvement; the sides assume their previous state and I don't want to cause any damage by overdoing things.

 

I'm considering coating the axlebox bearings with graphite by twisting the sharpened tip of a soft 6B pencil in them. If any member has had similar issues, have they tried this and had any success?

 

I would be extremely grateful for any useful suggestions.

 

PS The sanders on the "5" were working and the "strings" had all been pulled!

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The graphite technique usually works for me, but this sounds like something more fundamental. The flanges aren't rubbing on the floor, are they? I assume these are metal axles running in plastic 'bearings' in the frames. Can you try different wheelsets? (Bachmann are often a fraction shorter than Hornby for instance).

 

My solution would be to fit proper brass bearings, but this can be tricky. It could be just a touch with a fine drill or a 'truck tuner' will do the trick.

Edited by Il Grifone
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If you have a continuous run, take your beefiest centre motor diesel model, couple the coaches on, and run for a few hours. This will reveal if there is anything like the flanges rubbing by leaving witness marks. It may free up any bearing tightness too.

 

If the latter proves to be the trouble and isn't resolved by running, a squeeze over the axleboxes to form slightly deeper locating dimples is my cheap and dirty solution. A tiny dab GT85 PTFE lube to follow.

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I have a new Stanier 1st class coach LMS version that I bought new a couple of years ago. It is sitting in its box awaiting the roof being painted a more reasonable colour than 'new' metal. I just tested it and it rolls away accelerating happily on my 1 to 100 test slope, on level track the 'finger tap' test has the coach traveling about 6 inches

 

Are the brake blocks rubbing on the wheels?

 

Are the back to backs OK

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  • RMweb Gold

Sounds very similar to how many of the first batch of Hornby's SR-rebuilt LSWR non-corridor stock behaved.

 

Various remedies were suggested in the thread dealing with them.

 

My first pair took me ages to get running well, but those from the second batch were fine straight from the box.

 

John

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  • RMweb Gold

I am trying to fathom out as to why all three Hornby ex-LMS Stanier coaches purchased new within the last 6 months from different sources are afflicted with the same running issue.

 

The models - R4234B, R4235C and R4236C have such a high rolling resistance that when one is tapped with a finger, it comes to a stand amost immediately, almost as if the wheels have coach lighting pick-ups rubbing on them.

 

When inverted, the wheels appear to spin relatively freely but on the road, the drag is so great that the three vehicles coupled to a Bachmann "Porthole" and a CCT have caused a 5MT to loose its feet on level track!

 

The brake blocks have been checked and there's no obvious binding, however the axles do appear to have very little side play within the bogies. I've gently teased out the bogie frames to effect more freedom but there's no improvement; the sides assume their previous state and I don't want to cause any damage by overdoing things.

 

I'm considering coating the axlebox bearings with graphite by twisting the sharpened tip of a soft 6B pencil in them. If any member has had similar issues, have they tried this and had any success?

 

I would be extremely grateful for any useful suggestions.

 

PS The sanders on the "5" were working and the "strings" had all been pulled!

 

I rode behind a Black 5 like that once...

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  • RMweb Gold

I also have a Railroad mk1 BG that behaved like this when I first got it, and it took me some time, distracted as I was by playing with the wheels which seemed to run freely enough, to realise that the battery boxes were dragging on the rail head.  I removed the wheels and carefully re-inserted ensuring that the axle pin points were sitting correctly in their cones.  Problem solved and not returned since, but there is very little clearance above the rail on some coaches.  Mystery is why the wheels span properly at all out of their cones in the first place...

 

Or maybe it was just one of those weird situations where just taking something apart and putting it back together solves an problem before you have correctly diagnosed it!

 

if the wheels are sitting too low in their cones, or, to put it another way, if the bogie is sitting too low on the wheels, you may also have trouble with them fouling on the floor of the coach, or the solebars on sharp curves.  This is because the wheels are modelled to the correct diameter, to preserve scale appearance, but the 00 standard flanges are overscale and make the outer diameter of the entire wheel a few scale inches too large.

Edited by The Johnster
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  • RMweb Gold

Sounds very similar to how many of the first batch of Hornby's SR-rebuilt LSWR non-corridor stock behaved.

 

Various remedies were suggested in the thread dealing with them.

 

My first pair took me ages to get running well, but those from the second batch were fine straight from the box.

 

John

Thanks for that John.

Now you mention it, my ex-LSWR pair are somewhat recalcitrant as well; however, usually running together without other vehicles attached, the issue doesn't present a problem, being easily handled by an M7. Nevertheless, they are not very free running.

 

May I ask what approach is found to be the most successful.

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  • RMweb Gold

I have a new Stanier 1st class coach LMS version that I bought new a couple of years ago. It is sitting in its box awaiting the roof being painted a more reasonable colour than 'new' metal. I just tested it and it rolls away accelerating happily on my 1 to 100 test slope, on level track the 'finger tap' test has the coach traveling about 6 inches

 

Are the brake blocks rubbing on the wheels?

 

Are the back to backs OK

The back to backs seem fine, I haven't actually measured them but they negotiate code 75 points OK and the blocks are close but not actually rubbing.

I'm now thinking along the line of flanges rubbing as has also been suggested.

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And running. I break in all new rolling stock for several hours on a continuous run. Cleans up the tyres, polishes up the pin point locations, works close coupling mechanisms, reveals any rubbing by creating witness marks.

 

My preferred lubricant has been GT85 for well over a decade (plastic compatible PTFE spray bike lubricant). I am told there is now an even slippier plastics compatible model helicopter lube available, but the GT85 can I bought about four years ago is still two thirds full so it looks like 2026 before I'll be trying it.

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  • RMweb Gold

PROBLEM SOLVED!

 

It's a lovely, calm day and so I set up on the garden table to get to the bottom of this running issue.

 

With scrupulous observation I was able to detect that the upper half of the brake block on most axles of the Staniers was in contact with the wheel rim when the coach was placed on the track.

This was imperceptible when inverted and the wheels spun by hand but weight on the axles was just enough to bring about the problem.

 

Judicious filing with some small files and wet and dry has rectified the matter on all affected coaches. The SR ex-LSWR stock were remedied in the same fashion.

 

I would like to say special thanks to everyone for your most helpful suggestions.

Edited by Right Away
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  • RMweb Gold

Lubrication?

 

Stewart

 

I wouldn't.  The pin point bearings are designed to run in the cone without lubrication, and any sort that you put there will attract crud and make matters worse.

 

IMHO, the best system is pinpoint metal axle ends running in brass bearing inserts that sit in cups in the plastic chassis side moulding, but they cannot easily be inserted on an RTR bogie which is already made up and has no space to 'get at' the cups to drill them out.  But I think we approaching retail price levels where the manufacturers should be doing this for us.

Edited by The Johnster
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... the best system is pinpoint metal axle ends running in brass bearing inserts that sit in cups in the plastic chassis side moulding, but they cannot easily be inserted on an RTR bogie which is already made up and has no space to 'get at' the cups to drill them out.

 

I find that plastic bogies can be manipulated and distorted enough to be able to use a 2.0mm. drill perpendicularly to the bogie frames.

 

In this way, I have fitted brass pinpoint bearings to many, many coaches, from Tri-ang Hornby, through Lima to much more recent production.

 

The improvement in running is nothing short of miraculous.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited by cctransuk
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PROBLEM SOLVED!

It's a lovely, calm day and so I set up on the garden table to get to the bottom of this running issue.

With scrupulous observation I was able to detect that the upper half of the brake block on most axles of the Staniers was in contact with the wheel rim when the coach was placed on the track.

This was imperceptible when inverted and the wheels spun by hand but weight on the axles was just enough to bring about the problem.

Judicious filing with some small files and wet and dry has rectified the matter on all affected coaches. The SR ex-LSWR stock were remedied in the same fashion.

I would like to say special thanks to everyone for your most helpful suggestions.

It sounds as though the axles may be very slightly loose in the bearings, so they're above the designed centreline when running. I believe the recent Hornby 21t hoppers have a similar issue which leads to flanges rubbing on the hopper. Both models no doubt have adequate clearance as designed, but one or more of the factories isn't up to the required tolerances. Glad you now have usable coaches!
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Glad you solved the problem, stuff like that is definitely irritating when there isn’t an obvious answer.

Would it be worth informing Hornby of the problem? They might tweak the build or something for future sales. (Okay I doubt they will but it’s gotta be worth trying, right?)

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  • RMweb Gold

To sum up, the amazing attention to detail represented on models in recent years is reflected by the prices therein commanded.

 

However, it is not unreasonable to expect that higher priced examples will all perform satisfactorily. Once again quality control is brought into question. Customers, who are prepared to incur the costs of research and latest manufacturing processes, expect to purchase a first class, USABLE product which will run flawlessly out of the box.

Finely detailed vehicles look splendid on our railways, but ultimately their ability to operate smoothly is paramount. Older, possibly second-hand purchases can benefit from modifications and thereafter can run very well indeed but it should be inconceivable to have to resort to these measures on brand new stock.

 

Conversely, I do relish the considerable sense of achievement when overcoming various modelling challenges but this can wear a bit thin when new, expensive items are involved.

 

Striving to replicate the "real" railway, it would be best left to the individual if he/she wishes to emulate prototypical vehicle running problems such as oil starved bearings, dragging brakes and general lack of maintenance!

Thanks again all.

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