LMS Period 1 Coaches

[Stanley Melrose]

I have some Bachmann LMS Period I coaches 34-226 Corridor Brake End and 34-252 Corridor Composite.  Both are in LMS crimson livery.  My query is whether Bachmann ever produced either of these coaches in BR blood and custard or BR maroon liveries.  If so, can anyone let me have the relevant product codes, please?

 

Many thanks in anticipation,

 

Stan

[cctransuk]

I have some Bachmann LMS Period I coaches 34-226 Corridor Brake End and 34-252 Corridor Composite.  Both are in LMS crimson livery.  My query is whether Bachmann ever produced either of these coaches in BR blood and custard or BR maroon liveries.  If so, can anyone let me have the relevant product codes, please?

 

Many thanks in anticipation,

 

Stan

 

I can't answer for Bachmann, but there were maroon and crimson / cream versions by the original producer Mainline Railways; see :-

 

http://www.hattons.co.uk/stocklist/1000444/1000588/1000636/0/Mainline_OO_Gauge_1_76_Scale_Coaches/prodlist.aspx

 

A search on Ebay for Mainline Railways coaches will find quite a few.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[81C]

Stan check this web site out you want page 39 it should be what you are looking for.

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20171112221118/http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/pdfs/branchline_products_by_item_no_rev11.pdf

[brossard]

The bodies of these are pretty accurate.  I compared with drawings in the Jenkinson's Historical Carriage Drawings Vol 1 and they are spot on.  The underframes are quite dated and would beneft from adding Comet components.  A significant issue is lack of all 3rd coaches.  For the brave there are etched sides and ends available from Comet.

 

In their LMS guise the livery is hopelessly inaccurate.  They never received the 1934 lining scheme (I've never found any evidence) and would have spent their lives on LMS with the Midland panelled style.  This is not a style that is easy to do.

 

I reckon the carmine/cream livery is quite plausible.  Not sure if they would have survived long enough to receive post 1956 maroon.

 

They are certainly worth scrubbing up.

 

John

Edited May 18, 2018 by brossard

[Stanley Melrose]

Many thanks to all who replied - just the information I was seeking!

 

Cheers,

 

Stan

[90164]

By BR days and certainly by BR Maroon days many of the coaches would have had bits of panelling replaced. Photos I've seen suggest it would be rare for any of them by the late 50s to still be fully panelled. I'm not sure how you could replicate this appearance.

 

Frank

[cctransuk]

By BR days and certainly by BR Maroon days many of the coaches would have had bits of panelling replaced. Photos I've seen suggest it would be rare for any of them by the late 50s to still be fully panelled. I'm not sure how you could replicate this appearance.

 

Frank

 

Fill in the panels in question with your preferred filler; (Milliput in my case); and sand back when hard.

 

The local carriage sidings, where I did my trainspotting, were filled with rakes of ancient coaches that only moved on summer Bank Holidays.

 

Period 1 coaches were very much in evidence; patch-panelled, painted in faded maroon and devoid of lining - just the thing for a day trip from Leicester to Skeggy!

 

Regards,

John isherwood.

[Wickham Green]

The bodies of these are pretty accurate ...........

............. apart from being one or two mil' too wide !

[asmay2002]

They never received the 1934 lining scheme (I've never found any evidence) and would have spent their lives on LMS with the Midland panelled style.

This seems an implausible sweeping statement at best.  There aren't many clear pictures of period 1 coaches in any livery.  Typically coaches were repainted at about 7 year intervals and so this would mean that the later built period one coaches from 1927/8 would have been repainted in the 1934 scheme at their first repaint although earlier ones would have got a repaint in the original scheme in the early in 1930s and perhaps a second repaint in the simple scheme just before the war.   Any repainted after the war would certainly have got the simplified lining (wartime repaints had non at all).  

Edited May 21, 2018 by asmay2002

[brossard]

Andy I have searched high and low for a picture of a PI coach in simplified lining and never found one.  If you know of any evidence please let us know.

 

John

[TheSignalEngineer]

From Pat Hammond's book the BR livery LMS Period 1 stock was as follows:-

 

LMS 57' Period 1 Composite

BR Maroon         M3541M    Replica Railways 12202

BR Maroon         M3565M    Bachmann 34-250

Crimson/Cream  M3672M    Bachmann 34-300

 

LMS 57' Period 1 Brake 3rd

BR Maroon         M5334M     Replica Railways 12212

BR Maroon         M5315M     Bachmann 34-225

Crimson/Cream  M5267M     Bachmann 34-275

 

These models were based on the Mainline version but Godfrey Hayes at Replica had the roof modified with separately added vents and the hard integral corridor connections were replaced by a separate flexible one.

 

The Replica version was made in 1989 and the Bachmann ones in 1990.

 

The lack of an all 3rd is an inconvenience rather than a total disaster for BR modellers as in later years they were often mixed with Period 2 and early period 3 stock and regularly appeared in short trains which had Brake/Compo/Brake formations. 

 

As far as I can work out the totals of all-door corridor stock built in the early days of the LMS were 

 

Model versions

Brake 3rd 5-compartment      125

Composite 4x3rd 3x1st          201 

 

Other versions

Brake 3rd                                14

Composite                               30

Third                                      250

 

 

it should be noted that a large number of these coaches were used overseas in WW2, some having been converted to Ambulance Train vehicles. Some never returned and a lot of those which did were converted to Full Brakes in 1946-49. Among these were about 60 of the modelled versions including numbers 3672 and 5315 used by Bachmann.  3672 was still running as BG No. M31175M in 1965. The last BG conversions were scrapped around 1967.

 

All of the ones which had remained in passenger use were withdrawn c1957-62 although some lasted in departmental use. 3565 became DM395776 allocated to the CS&TE Signal Box Construction depot at Crewe. It was at British Railways Staff Association at Aylesbury in the early 1980s, and is now in a semi-derelict condition at Peak Rail.

Edited May 21, 2018 by TheSignalEngineer

[BernardTPM]

 

The lack of an all 3rd is an inconvenience rather than a total disaster for BR modellers as in later years they were often mixed with Period 2 and early period 3 stock and regularly appeared in short trains which had Brake/Compo/Brake formations. 

 

The Corridor Thirds on the corridor side are almost the same as the Composite. If the blank panel were opened out to a window, the roof vents changed and the corridor wall altered to give eight compartments then, as long as the coach wasn't turned round, it would easily pass for a full Third. For a full conversion you'd probably need to sacrifice parts of the compartmentside of a Brake Third, which is much less economical.

[coachmann]

Andy I have searched high and low for a picture of a PI coach in simplified lining and never found one.  If you know of any evidence please let us know.

Try this scanned from 'An Illustrated History of LMS Coaches 1923-57' by David Jenkinson and Bob Essery....

 

Pureley an example of how LMS 1934-47 livery looked on a Period I coach. Even on a model, the light reflected off the raised beading could be construed for full panelled lining on an old black & white photo...

Edited May 22, 2018 by coachmann

[brossard]

Lovely Larry.  I have the book and completely missed that text.  It's an important point for LMS modellers because when upgrading these coaches, the simplified lining is a lot easier to do that the panelled (something I doubt I could do).

 

I'm still troubled by the lack of any prototype photographs of PI coaches in simplified lining.

 

John

[ianwales]

Hi

 

Could you make a full third from 2 brake thirds?

 

Ian

[coachmann]

Lovely Larry.  I have the book and completely missed that text.  It's an important point for LMS modellers because when upgrading these coaches, the simplified lining is a lot easier to do that the panelled (something I doubt I could do).

 

I'm still troubled by the lack of any prototype photographs of PI coaches in simplified lining.

 

John

The clearest pictures I have come across show the simple livery on ex.LNWR coaches. In their case the double yellow waist lining was applied to the waist panel depending on the style of panelling, but the two cantrail yellow lines were often omitted altogether. 

 

Looking for photos clearly showing lining on coaches in the mid to late 1930's is like looking for a needle in a hay stack because the well known railway photographers of their time took mainly ¾-front wedge shots for maximum impact when published. Amateurs copied the 'masters'. Jenkinson & Essery did a lot of original research from the early 1960's onward and I doubt anyone else will come up with alternative information at this stage of the game.  Simpler liveries were adopted by the GWR, LMS and SR for financial reasons following the 1929-30 depression.

 

LMS full panelled gold leaf and fine red lines livery was very expensive and time consuming to apply, it's last application being on the initial Stanier flush sided coaches of 1933. The more these coaches came on stream, the more Period I coaches were cascaded to less important trains. Those coaches given full panelled livery last would no doubt retain it until the late 1930's and some through the war years when patch painting and varnishing was more often the simplest, cheapest and quickest way of preserving an external finish.

Edited May 22, 2018 by coachmann

[TheSignalEngineer]

Hi

 

Could you make a full third from 2 brake thirds?

 

Ian

Not easily. It would probably be easier to use a compo with etched sides.

[BernardTPM]

Hi

Could you make a full third from 2 brake thirds?

Ian

No, because the corridor side is different (and two Brake Thirds would leave you with the toilet at the wrong end of the compartments for one end). It's easier to just alter the corridor side of a Composite - see my post no.12 above. The compartments from a Brake Third could be spliced in with the Third Class ones of a composite, but some sideways adjustment will be needed as the toilets at the ends of Composites and Brake Thirds are not quite the same size, hence my suggestion of 'faking it' on the Corridor side only. On most layouts you don't get to see both sides of coaches.

 

 

Also one coach is cheaper than two!

[coachmann]

Never having been a cutter & shutter. it is too much effort for so little achievement if one ends up with a compromise.  I considered the simplest way was to etch them, which is what I did. But I started with the Midland-built variants started by Reid around 1922 and moved onto LMS Period I stock afterwards. Once the chassis had been etched, it was only a matter of etching different 57' bodies. The real coaches were designed to use standard components and production did not cease until 1930....

Edited May 23, 2018 by coachmann

[brossard]

Following up on Larry's post, I agree that etched brass is the way to go.  You don't have to make these, Comet (now with Wizard Models) do them.

 

Before making the switch to 0 gauge, I started a project to make a 4 coach rake of these (Brake, Compo, 3rd, Brake).  The lack of an all 3rd is a nuisance but I got myself Comet sides and ends and converted one of the coaches to 3rd:

 

 

 

I did cut and shut the interior.  I also used Comet parts to upgrade the underframe.

 

Sadly these will never get finished now and all four are for sale.  If anyone wants these please PM me.

 

Another follow up to an earlier comment about the Bachmann coach width - I measured mine and they come out to 9'3" which is cock on.

 

John

 

 

[BernardTPM]

Never having been a cutter & shutter. it is too much effort for so little achievement if one ends up with a compromise.  I considered the simplest way was to etch them, which is what I did.

I can't really disagree there, though I would say if using etched sides it would be best to have all the coaches of the same type etched, especially if they are used next to each other.

[TheSignalEngineer]

I can't really disagree there, though I would say if using etched sides it would be best to have all the coaches of the same type etched, especially if they are used next to each other.

I looked at cut'n'shut for my excursion stock but have bought Comet sides ready to use on the donor vehicles. Plastic RTR ones can look O.K. with them but need re-painting to match. In addition painting the inside edges of the windows black helps to disguise the thickness of plastic sides.

One vehicle I intend to do is a representation of one of the full brakes converted from the returned Ambulance train stock. IIRC about 60 of these were done during 1946-49 from the BTK and CK of the type done by Bachmann.

Edited May 23, 2018 by TheSignalEngineer

[coachmann]

One vehicle I intend to do is a representation of one of the full brakes converted from the returned Ambulance train stock. IIRC about 60 of these were done during 1946-49 from the BTK and CK of the type done by Bachmann.

I look forward to seeing your ex Ambulance full brake.  

Edited May 23, 2018 by coachmann

[shunny]

Did Bachmann not announce that one of the moulds was damaged during the last production of these? I wonder if they may retool in the future as they have recently with the Thomson and Bullied coaches?

[Wickham Green]

 

Another follow up to an earlier comment about the Bachmann coach width - I measured mine and they come out to 9'3" which is cock on.

 

John

Maybe it was just the Mainline originals that were too wide, then - sorry !