Mystery Vehicles/kits LMS MR FR? I.D. needed.

[micklner]

I have just acquired the below 4mm vehicles in a job lot most are scratch built , at the moment I have no idea of the prototypes for any of them. They came with a number of kits with markings for MR and FR which I am presuming is Midland and Furness Railways, they all look like British vehicles. I again presume at the moment these are MR FR /LMS vehicles.

 

Scratch Trestle wagon , for carrying steel sheets ? a very deep well.

 

 

 

Etched Brass Horsebox, company? No markings on the kit as to maker.

 

 

 

 

Etched Nickel Silver Full brake with Birdcage lookout, no idea if 4 or 6 wheeler it came with 2 w irons. Again no maker.

 

 

 

 

Any assistance re I.D ,  markings,  companies etc will be much appreciated.

 

 

 

 

[cctransuk]

I have just acquired the below 4mm vehicles in a job lot most are scratch built , at the moment I have no idea of the prototypes for any of them. They came with a number of kits with markings for MR and FR which I am presuming is Midland and Furness Railways, they all look like British vehicles. I again presume at the moment these are MR FR /LMS vehicles.

 

Scratch Trestle wagon , for carrying steel sheets ? a very deep well.

 

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Etched Brass Horsebox, company? No markings on the kit as to maker.

 

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Etched Nickel Silver Full brake with Birdcage lookout, no idea if 4 or 6 wheeler it came with 2 w irons. Again no maker.

 

 

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IMG_6285.JPG

 

Any assistance re I.D ,  markings,  companies etc will be much appreciated.

 

The first one is a wagon for plate glass - I can't say which company though.

 

They usually had screw clamps to prevent the crated glass from moving.

 

Regardless of origin / diagram, they are a s*d to model in anything but P4, as the well has to fit closely BETWEEN the wheels!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Steamport Southport]

I've got a feeling that the plate glass wagon is LNWR. Only a feeling mind.

 

Possibly for traffic from Pilkingtons in St Helens.

 

 

 

 

Jason

Edited May 21, 2018 by Steamport Southport

[MarcD]

The horse box could be Furness but the others are not. The brake coach looks like a LSWR example.

 

Marc

[micklner]

I have just found a photo of a Bedford MR Horsebox which is i.d with the above Horsebox. 

 

 

Still looking for the others . Thanks for the replies.

[Compound2632]

The glass wagon is Midland, D323, two built in 1891 and one more in 1899, or D723, one built in 1912. The earlier vehicles had Ellis 10A axleboxes, the 1912 one had oil axleboxes with larger journals and hence could carry 10 tons rather than 6 tons. Length over headstocks should be 27ft, length of well, 20ft, and wheelbase 21ft. [Ref. R.J. Essery, Midland Wagons Vol. 2 (OPC, 1980) pp. 40-41.]

 

The horsebox is also Midland, D397, 249 built 1883-1888. [Ref. R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Carriages Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1986) pp. 398-399.]

 

Pass on the passenger brake van.

[Nick Holliday]

The passenger brake van is an SECR one, as per the one on the Bluebell. http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/1601.html

The kit is probably from Branchlines.

[micklner]

Many thanks again for the additional info 

[Guy Rixon]

The passenger brake van is an SECR one, as per the one on the Bluebell. http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/1601.html

The kit is probably from Branchlines.

 

The van in the photo has 6 wheels and a three-arc roof. The model has 4 wheels and a single-arc roof. There is a Branchlines kit for a 6-wheeled van with roof observatory but this model is not that. There's a Mousa kit for an SER 25ft PBV with roof observatory and I suspect that this model may be from that kit; however, the Mousa catalogue has no picture so it's hard to be sure.

[Fat Controller]

The Glass wagon is of a type used by the LMS, though examples were built as late as 1955 at Swindon, latterly carrying the cose 'GLASS MD'. The later versions had the same main carrying frame, but the sloping supports were of lighter section, and only went about half-way up the vertical ones. Larkin's 'Wagons of the Middle British Railways Era' has a 1970 photo of one. The glass was carried in wooden crates in later years. The GWR design, as modelled by K's many years ago, looked like a Lowmac with a pair of supports fitted to the floor.

[micklner]

The van in the photo has 6 wheels and a three-arc roof. The model has 4 wheels and a single-arc roof. There is a Branchlines kit for a 6-wheeled van with roof observatory but this model is not that. There's a Mousa kit for an SER 25ft PBV with roof observatory and I suspect that this model may be from that kit; however, the Mousa catalogue has no picture so it's hard to be sure.

 

Panelling on the kit appears to match the SECR one, there is no guarantee that the third w iron is not missing as this was bought in a box of "bits ". I have never heard of a 3 arc roof , can you explain what that it is please? I have looked at the Mouse site , I couldn't find a SER PBV ? Thanks.

[Fat Controller]

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/srpmvPanelling on the kit appears to match the SECR one, there is no guarantee that the third w iron is not missing as this was bought in a box of "bits ". I have never heard of a 3 arc roof , can you explain what that it is please? I have looked at the Mouse site , I couldn't find a SER PBV ? Thanks.

The roofs on many ES (and later, SR) vehicles had a roof profile with a large-radius curve on the centre section, and much smaller ones on the sides. This link will show what I mean:-  http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/srpmv

I've sometimes heard it called a three-centre roof. 

[Guy Rixon]

Panelling on the kit appears to match the SECR one, there is no guarantee that the third w iron is not missing as this was bought in a box of "bits ". I have never heard of a 3 arc roof , can you explain what that it is please? I have looked at the Mouse site , I couldn't find a SER PBV ? Thanks.

 

"Three-arc roof" means that it has a a shallow curve of constant radius in the centre and tighter curves at each side, such that the extreme edges of the roof become effectively vertical. This is sometimes called an "elliptical roof", but it isn't quite the same thing. If the roof profile is a true half-ellipse, then the radius changes continuously from the centre line to the edge.

 

The SECR's earlier coaches had the same panelling as the SER's later series because they had the same designers: William and Harry Wainwright. The earlier coaches by William Wainwright had single-arc roofs and he changed to three-arc roofs some time in the 1880s (might possibly have been late 1870s). From memory, without access to my reference books, I think the PBVs were probably the last vehicles built with single-arc roofs and the vans with three-arc roofs didn't appear until the later 1890s, just before the formation of the SECR. Some photos of principal trains of the early 1900s show 6-wheeled passenger-coaches with a 4-wheeled van (with a single-arc roof) at the front, and these would be vehicles inherited by the SECR from the SER. I think you have one of those.

 

I agree that the model is of a coach from the SER or the SECR, but it definitely isn't the same diagram as the Bluebell's preserved van. The single-arc roof proves that. Also, this model van is shorter. If you look at the lower step-boards, you can see that they are rebated for two axles, not three.

 

Mousa do a kit BCK3201 SER 25ft Birdcage Brake Van.

[micklner]

Many thanks for the informative reply.

[Compound2632]

The glass wagon is Midland, D323, two built in 1891 and one more in 1899, or D723, one built in 1912. The earlier vehicles had Ellis 10A axleboxes, the 1912 one had oil axleboxes with larger journals and hence could carry 10 tons rather than 6 tons. Length over headstocks should be 27ft, length of well, 20ft, and wheelbase 21ft. [Ref. R.J. Essery, Midland Wagons Vol. 2 (OPC, 1980) pp. 40-41.]

 

The Glass wagon is of a type used by the LMS, though examples were built as late as 1955 at Swindon, latterly carrying the cose 'GLASS MD'. The later versions had the same main carrying frame, but the sloping supports were of lighter section, and only went about half-way up the vertical ones. Larkin's 'Wagons of the Middle British Railways Era' has a 1970 photo of one. The glass was carried in wooden crates in later years. 

 

OK so the LMS perpetuated a Midland design. According to R.J. Essery and K.R.Morgan, The LMS Wagon (David & Charles, 1977). p. 99, there were 66 built 1926-1947 (no mention of Swindon). Diagram P75; the dimensions are much the same as the Midland version except 26ft over headstocks, and the frames for the glass are like the LNWR version. Also, steel framed. The difference in length is noticable in the photos, with the outer spring shoe being nearer the end of the wagon.

 

I can't tell from the photo if the kit has steel or wooden frames but anyway the large wooden framework for holding the plate glass clearly marks Mick's wagon out as the Midland version.

[micklner]

Re the above Coach.

 

 

I have found the model listed on the Branchlines Catalogue PDF.

 

Branchlines ref no 4.10 SER 27ft 4 wheel PBV there is a drawing on the listing , sadly it will not allow for it to be copy/paste for comparison. The drawing matches the Coach 100% ( well pleased with the result). Other than roof vents and axle castings the coach is complete. They list spares for them ,so that will not be a problem either. 

 

Thanks again.

 

thanks again SE&CR 4.10

[Mrkirtley800]

The horse box is certainly Midland. The kit came out in the late 1970s or early 80s. I have no idea who produced it, but a Midland elliptical roofed covered carriage truck came out at the same time. There may have been kits for vehicles from other railways, but I am sure these were the only Midland ones produced.

I built up both kits and will post pics of them later.

Derek

Edited May 23, 2018 by Mrkirtley800

[Jol Wilkinson]

"Three-arc roof" means that it has a a shallow curve of constant radius in the centre and tighter curves at each side, such that the extreme edges of the roof become effectively vertical. This is sometimes called an "elliptical roof", but it isn't quite the same thing. If the roof profile is a true half-ellipse, then the radius changes continuously from the centre line to the edge.

 

 

The LNWR used a profile like that and referred to it as a "Cove" roof, as did the Furness Railway.

[Mrkirtley800]

Here are the two vehicles in Kirkby Malham station.  They were painted and lined by Coachman Larry many years ago, and ran on my old exhibition layout in the 1980s and 90s.

As I remember, they were quite easy to put together.

Derek

[Compound2632]

Those are kits I'd love to get my hands on!

[jwealleans]

Micro-Rail. They became part of David Geen's range via Alan Gibson and were still available the last time I spoke to David. He handed this one to me himself at Hartlepool Show not too long ago.

 

[Compound2632]

Micro-Rail. They became part of David Geen's range via Alan Gibson and were still available the last time I spoke to David. He handed this one to me himself at Hartlepool Show not too long ago.

 

D*#n! Why didn't I spot that before... I was too focused on the whitemetal wagon kits.

[57xx]

Panelling on the kit appears to match the SECR one, there is no guarantee that the third w iron is not missing as this was bought in a box of "bits ". I have never heard of a 3 arc roof , can you explain what that it is please? I have looked at the Mouse site , I couldn't find a SER PBV ? Thanks.

 

Further to Guy's description, here it is in pictures.

 

http://www.penrhos.me.uk/LewisClassification.htm

[Mrkirtley800]

Micro-Rail. They became part of David Geen's range via Alan Gibson and were still available the last time I spoke to David. He handed this one to me himself at Hartlepool Show not too long ago.

Thanks for that. I have been wracking what brains I have, trying to remember the kit makers name, micro rail, well I’ll eat my hat.

Derek