Help With This Conversion

[Sir TophamHatt]

Following on from a previous topic on converting an older train to DCC including adding LED lights, I now have another train but this one doesn't seem to be as simple.

 

It's a Fleischmann 4400 Rail bus, oo gauge.

Actually, it's something like a 4100 but there's very little difference between them.

 

This train has two LEDs bulbs, red and white.

 

 

What is the small green box here?

 

I see from the back section, it has two sets of pickups from each wheel. One side goes to the front coach, I assume to the motor. The other side goes to one of the bulbs. The other bulb has a wire that goes to the green box, then heads from there (it looks like) to the other side of the train and to a bulb there.

 

The problem is, the motor only seems to have one side that is connected, and has a coil of wire. This leads to a pickup, which also has a wire heading to the rear coach.

 

So any pointers on where to begin would be very much appreciated.

 

Thanks

Edited July 16, 2018 by Sir TophamHatt

[Phil S]

To quote Julie Andrews - start from the very beginning -a very good place to start...

 

1/ The motor faceplates require a lot of work to isolate the brushes from the chassis

2/ The lights use the chassis for their return path.

3/ A multimeter and furhter tools are s definite requirement.

 

So the replacement LEDs (and series resistors) will need all-new wiring out-and-back

 

IT MAY SEEM unnecessarily expensive - but it is cheaper and more flexible to use a separate decoder

(the cheapest you can get) for the unpowered trailer - that way the 2 partscan be separated for storage and handling

- it is extremely inconvenient to have them permanently attachec, and even small plags/sockets are bulkier than the simple

connecting drawbar.

 

And for the motor:

I replace such Fleishmann and Lima 'Ringfield' motors with the current equivalent of 'modeltorque' conversions-  which in this case

means £5including post for a replacement motor with either Fleischmann or Lima (count the teeth) -matching gear attached

from Sumi in Finland via Ebay -  although searching today has found a more expensive UK source fildown who also offers Hornby Ringfield compatible versions of 'silent motor'.  ( They offer 2 sizes of motor 10mm and 12mm ... the 10mm is more expensive )

 

(In the past,before these were readily available, I used to use a diamond slitting disc to cut through the faceplate surface of the fleischmann motor, or bought the replacement dcc-compatible faceplate asa spare part,  to isolate the pickups and brushes from each other and the chassis - don't forget to remove the capacitor too.

 

UNLIKE the Modeltorque versions, these leave the user to locate and secure the motor inside the old shell - eg by glueing matchsticks as spacers around them.  (I have not read any conversion instructions from the new UK supplier)

 

FOR MODELS with NEM pockets - Hornby's working Scharfenburg couplings are now available again in packs of 4  (2 pairs)

 

A POSSIBLE OPTION to link power-pick-up between cars is to use a Hornby or Bachmann Spare part for a NEM electrical coupling - but as but this will require a NEM pocket beong fitted too (eg a Dapol conversion pack of couplings)

Edited May 22, 2018 by Phil S

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...any pointers on where to begin would be very much appreciated.

 

 I feel that question zero is 'Do I really want to carve this nice old piece about?". A small branch or similar dedicated to DC operation is how I handle such things.

[John ks]

The green thing is a double diode used for directional lighting on DC

 

To me it looks as if

“a” is the pickup to right rear wheel

“b” is connection to chassis & wire to pickup on rear dummy unit

“c” is pickup to left front wheel

“d” brush holder.          This is the one that will have to be isolated from the chassis

I would tackle this as the first priority, if it can’t be done then DCC conversion may not be practical

“e” the other brush holder

“f” is an inductor or choke, can be removed for DCC

“g” is a capacitor & can also be removed for DCC

 

 

 

 

Behind the Brushes is a light coloured material that may be an insulator

If there is a brass plate between the brush “d” & the bearing bush then this may be all that is needed to be cut to isolate that brush from the chassis

 

A close up photo showing the brushes from in line with the motor bearing may be helpful to determine if it is possible to isolate the brushes.

 

 

There are 4 wires running between the powered (front) & dummy (rear) units.

2 are for pickups & could be left untouched in the front unit; in the read unit some rewiring will be necessary

The other 2 are for the lights & could be reused for LED lighting

 

The following pics might give you a clue on how to connect lights & pickups

 

Disconnect 2 wires from any terminal on the green diode box & make sure that they remain connected to each other. Repeat this for the other 2 terminals

 

You will need a blue wire (decoder function common) from the front to rear units.

 

 

 

John

[Sir TophamHatt]

 I feel that question zero is 'Do I really want to carve this nice old piece about?". A small branch or similar dedicated to DC operation is how I handle such things.

 

Yeah, I thought about this, especially as it's quite sentimental.

I really don't have a DC layout or want to have a dedicated line of DC though.

 

However, it's giving me confidence to learn the ins and outs of model trains.  While my terminology is rubbish, I really enjoyed tinkering and converting the OBB 2043 diesel and now seeing it trundling knowing how much work I put into it (not a lot really - but a lot for a beginner!), it brings much satisfaction.

 

Here's a couple of pictures of the bush area:

 

 

 

So it looks plastic...

[Phil S]

Have you made the simplest of tests with a multimeter?

Measure between each brush holder and 'every other part' in turn,and confirm there is NO connection (except  between the 2 brushes - about10-20 ohms.

CHECK Continuity from the wheel pickups -and see if ANY of the metal chassis is connected to either rail (or motor block)

 

From the photo,it looks as if both motor terminals ARE probably isolated once the existing wiring is removed.

 

DO CHECK to see if the directional bulbs use the chassis as their return path  - they used to in many Fleischmann models! - your replacement LED/resistor connections should avoid that  (UNLESS using a 6-pin decoder) 

[Nigelcliffe]

Have you made the simplest of tests with a multimeter?

Measure between each brush holder and 'every other part' in turn,and confirm there is NO connection (except  between the 2 brushes - about10-20 ohms.

CHECK Continuity from the wheel pickups -and see if ANY of the metal chassis is connected to either rail (or motor block)

 

From the photo,it looks as if both motor terminals ARE probably isolated once the existing wiring is removed.

agree with all of the above.

 

DO CHECK to see if the directional bulbs use the chassis as their return path  - they used to in many Fleischmann models! - your replacement LED/resistor connections should avoid that  (UNLESS using a 6-pin decoder)

 

No need to avoid for any decoder, and it is the only option on a 6-pin. It is covered in most decent decoder maker's manuals (just checked a Lenz and Zimo manual, which both describe using the chassis pickup for this style of manufactured chassis).

The use of the chassis pickup as one side of a LED/resistor combination is legitimate wiring on any decoder. The pickup is an alternative to using the decoder positive (blue) wire. The difference is that the LED/resistor will receive half-wave power, so will be slightly less bright than using the decoder positive (blue) wire.

 

What you mustn't do is connect the decoder blue wire to the chassis and pickups, that will damage the decoder. 

 

 

[John ks]

Thanks for the close-ups

 

The brush “b” will be crimped to the insulating plate “k” & insulated from the chassis

 

The brush “a” needs to be connected to the chassis for the motor to get a return path

 

I can’t see any obvious connection to the chassis

 

I suspect that brush housing “a” goes through the plastic plate”k” & the motor end cover “h” & is crimped to it to make the brush connection to the chassis .

 

The way to confirm this is to remove the end cover “h” & look at the other side

 

To remove this cover first pull off the brush covers “a” & “b” (don’t loose the springs when taking off the brush covers)

Remove the brushes

Remove the 3 screws “J” & the plate should pull off the motor shaft

 

Turn the plate over & see if the brush holder “a” is crimped to the plate”h”

Good time to take a photo of the inside of the plate

The brush holder “b” should only be crimped to the plastic plate “k”

 

 

 

 

If you manage to isolate the beushes from the chassis then “m” & “c” are where the decoder motor connection go

 

“f” & “g” are connections to a RFI capacitor which can be removed for DCC

Be very careful unsoldering this capacitor as too much heat can damage the plastic plate "k"

 

John

[Sir TophamHatt]

Hi

 

Sorry for not coming back sooner. I wanted to give myself time to do this properly.

 

You're correct though. It looks like A is connected to the chassis while B is connected to the plastic isolation.

 

Does that mean it's not really able to be changed to DCC?

 

Sorry can't flip the photo. The top brush is A.

 

Alternatively, if I used a CD drive motor as a replacement motor, I guess none of this would matter? But then I'd have to fit that motor into the housing?

Then I can just follow the diagram above for wiring the LEDs?

Would I then need the blue common return?

Edited July 16, 2018 by Sir TophamHatt

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...You're correct though. It looks like A is connected to the chassis while B is connected to the plastic isolation.

 

Does that mean it's not really able to be changed to DCC?...

 

 As it stands, it cannot be converted to DCC. 

 

If the motor is good, then worth searching whether Fleischmann have a replacement part which isolates brush A in the same style as brush B? This was a standard motor in their product for many years and I would think a lot of owners will have wanted to make such a conversion for DCC operation.

[Phil S]

Fleischmann DO offer a range of faceplates to suit their differing motors - but the cost of 1 is more than the cost of the CD motor from finland including postage !!

The existing magnet MAY be ageing.  of course, the upgraded fleischmann motor may last longer than the cd motor ...   The cd motor needs lower voltage and current

[Sir TophamHatt]

Thanks.

 

Can I control that with the CV option? Or would I be better using a few diodes?

 

And just confirmation on the LED lights, I don't need the connection from the pickup to the LEDs anymore?

Edited July 15, 2018 by Sir TophamHatt

[Phil S]

The 2 options to ensure the motor is 'protected' is to either reduce the available voltage 'absolutely' with hardware, or by 'software' with CV5 max Speed - provided the loco decoder chosen has that CV included ! (the basic Hornby decoder does not - despite speed limiting perhaps being most desirable with 'younger drivers' ???)

 

The original version was from Modeltorque and for the extra price (more than double) it included the mounting frame  AND a set of components (in heat shrink lump) - probably standard diodes in inverse parallel or series back to back zenors ... a belt and braces approach - perhaps protecting the supplier against returns 8-) - especially if the user had an old H&M unregulated safety Minor or Clipper or similar controller which outputs up to 28V with 'no load' from its 12V terminals.

 

The decoder will output 12V pulses above the audio range (if a modern 'silent' decoder) and these will be smoothed / filtered together by the motor inductance to give a smooth drive.  The possibility that the applied voltage is double that intended is unlikely to be a problem  - but may be more significant if used to haul heavy loads for a long time. - Susu does not recommend the thin version of the motor in such cases.  [Conversely, a much smaller over voltage would /could destroy an LED ]

 

Therefore CV5 limiting to the desired maximum speed is likely to be adequate -unless you commonly reset the CVs of your decoders - in which case the hardware option,with  its continuing physical presence may be a better option;  inverse parallel diodes of 1A rating cascaded for the drop you want - eg 3-5 sets ?? depending also on your Trackdcc voltage  (I use 16Vtrackdcc for H0m, H0e,H0, 00 and G scale on the level -giving about 12v to the motors, but 18-22V for  G-scale in the garden with slopes - which noticeably increase current demand too.  a combination approach may be the best solution for variable circumstances.

 

With regard to the LED wiring - I would always advocate the 'double insulated'  -ie not via chassis-method wherever possible.- and using the thinnest (plastic sleeve) wiring that you can - for most flexibility   [ eg look at some of the adverts for 'thinwall' car automotive wiring ]

ALSO - IF POSSIBLE - and this applies both to 2-rail and 3-rail conversions to 2-rail: ISOLATE the CHASSIS from the track (and motor etc) - ESPECIALLY if the couplings PREDATE NEM pockets! - a metal coupling or buffer connected to one loco chassis, if it came into contact with another one - which might be on the opposite rail/phase - wouldresult in a shortcircuit .... one good reason for plastic in the coupling path !!

 

As I mentioned before, it may be cheaper - and certainly easier for storage - to use separate decoders in each car - driven and trailer - because the cost of a multipole NEM connector pair is about the same as  a Lenz Decoder

Edited July 15, 2018 by Phil S

[Sir TophamHatt]

Thanks so much.

Man, learning so much but becoming a lot more confident with not just converting but motors and the basics of what a train needs to get going.

 

I'm about half way through, but somewhat started again with the wires looking at what went where and then thinking why. Many of the connections I could rip out as they're no longer required; for example the pickups from the rear non-motor car both went via a screw, then towards the front car. As the screw wasn't particularly doing anything apart from holding the wheel bracket in, I bypassed that and ran the wire straight to the decoder.

Strange though as the front car has a pickup for the wheels on the right but not on the left. Is this where the live chassis comes in?

 

I guess I still have to make sure the (new cd) motor isn't touching the chassis too?

 

Or in the attached image, the small screw here (labeled B on the image near the top of the thread) doesn't actually go anywhere now, so if I took it out, would this mean the chassis isn't live? Or is it still receiving power through the wheel?

 

Don't mind checking with a multimeter but someone will have to detail the steps I should take.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Sir TophamHatt

[Phil S]

Isolating the chassis completely may be impractical:as this would also  involve replacing axles with only 1 wheel isolated,with wheelsets having both wheels isolated BUT this can also have the combined advantage of changing to finer-wheel sets at the same time - as early Fleischmann /Trix are quite coarse (like Tri-ang). 

 

If changing from a '3-rail' version - insulating, or changing to a new insulated axle is, of coarse, required.

 

HOWEVER - the important aspects- from the potential short circuit point-of-view, is to ensure that if /when the train derails; that no 'live chassis' part can come into contact with the  live track - important for dcc use as this would stop ALL trains in that (section) - and possibly with a high current flow (eg 3A, 5A, 10A) as opposed to the analogue situation of 1 loco in section, and a 1A controller.   [ I use PSX's to have lower limits in sub-districts in 00/H0 but not G 8-( ]   

 

This PROTECTION could simply be a piece of plasticard glued underneath the chassis or insulating tape - BUT IT IS THE COUPLINGS/buffers AREA that is most likely to come into operational contact with the other phase - via the next item of rolling stock with a metal coupling or buffer. 

As with some Hornby Ringfield conversions - the use of a nylon screw and washer instead of a conducting screw may give the desired isolation.

Plastic shafted couplings (even with a metal hook/loop), and plastic buffers may be all that is needed at each end (no old metalHornby-Dublo Simplex or Tri-ang metal 'british' couplings (Mk3)

 

The CD/Susu/Motortorque motor has 2 wires for its connections - these are both isolated from the case -so no need for insulation between motor and chassis.   IN the TRAILER it may be easy to make it  anisolated chassis -as both axles can be changed for ones with each wheel insulated - but then pickup needs to be from  a wiper (phosphor bronze strips available commercially)  on the back or rim of each wheel.

 

As the railbus is quite short, lifting the pair and storing them together, is not a great problem ( it becomes so with longer coaches and articulated units ! )

I may have used heat-shrink sleeving to bind the interconnecting wires on the coupling bar to prevent them dropping into the track.

 

Checking continuity with a multimeter is both essential and easy:  Set to the range with a beep or minimum ohm range - and simply test everycombination of metal and contact to find which are connected, and which are not: expect about 20ohms across the motor terminals.  Diodes (inculding LEDs) should be tested with the leads both ways round.  With DIGITAL meters, the red-terminal -lead is the more positive during resistance testing - as it is with current and voltage measurement.  

 

Experience with wiring errors on a recent Hornby dcc-ready loco has shown that it is best to test for continuity AND isolation to/from each wheel BOTH individually, AND when placed on the track (This is because different wheels were factory-wired to adjacent/different positions on the 8-pin decoder socket, which were commoned for analogue use by the header plug - but which destroyed the decoder because the motor was directly connected to one of the wheels !!!

 

An economical source of multicoloured thin wires - 9 colours or more - os to by ready-made Serial (or VGA Monitor) leads  -   buy a 5-10-20m version, and cut off each end )  to  use for layout board interconnections perhaps  - and then strip  back the central portion to have colour coded individual wires.

 

'Finally': I used to use 3mm LEDs as replacements for the bulbs, and then smaller types eg 1.8mm - but now tiny SMD versions are available ready-wired which allow for a much neater concealed fitting !!   (some comewith resistors, others don't - but all need them!

[Sir TophamHatt]

The CD/Susu/Motortorque motor has 2 wires for its connections - these are both isolated from the case -so no need for insulation between motor and chassis.

 

Checking continuity with a multimeter is both essential and easy: Set to the range with a beep or minimum ohm range - and simply test everycombination of metal and contact to find which are connected, and which are not: expect about 20ohms across the motor terminals.

Thanks Phil

Your knowledge has really helped me with this. It's the most complicated I've done so far.

 

Quickly tested it last night the motor turns so that's great. I reduced the 'vmax' to just 50 for now, so it was pretty slow. Just have to fit the gear and test it turning the wheels.

 

However, I have followed the below posted by John ks but the LEDs didn't turn on.

bus dcc.png

Would the low 'vmax' be responsible for this?

Or have I wired something wrong?

Each LED has it's own 1k resistor.

 

The only other thing that has changed is there are left and right pickups from the rear coach but only a right hand from the front coach (the red wire coming from the point above the wheel on my last image).

Would the screw that didn't appear to be doing anything be a pickup from the left side of the front coach (via the live chassis)?

Edited July 17, 2018 by Sir TophamHatt

[Phil S]

if the motor is operative via the decoder (and track pickups) then the lights should turn on at the appropriate time provided:

F0 Directional lighting (by default) White or Yellow wire to FLAT side of LED (with resistor in series - the resistor can be either side ) and BLUE to the other LED input.     Any LEDs eg internal lighting on F1 or F2  (green or violet by default) are not direction dependent 

 

The metal screw  may well have been used to make the connection. a meter will confirm the continuity ...

 

You want RIGHT TRACK (all wheels with pickups) to go to the RED decoder input, LEFT TRACK (all wheels with pickups) to go to the BLACK decoder input.  

ALL METER RESISTANCE MEASUREMENTS are to be made with the track power off and/or loco off the track - you are looking for continuity or isolation and have no interest in any dcc or other track voltage at this time.

 

Check this with the meter both ON and OFF the track -    ALSO  check NO connection between any black/left wheel and any Red/right wheel.

 

Check with the meter that there is NO connection other than to Orange or Grey for the 2 motor leads -and about 20ohms or more  (do not be confused by their being red and black sleeves 8-) )

 

For the LEDS - check between BLUE and their respective colour -swapping the meter leads over .... in ONE direction they should give a 'mid' value ... and it is probably when the Red meter lead is touching the BLUE or the LED +ve,and the BLACK meter lead is touching the 'coloured wire' white/yellow/green/violet -OR the flat side of the LED.     For the LED resistance reading - you can EITHER include or exclude the resistor - it will not damage the LED in this mode.

 

A Simple LED tester is a 9V battery, a 1 - 2K resistor and the LED  ....made easier if you buy a power clip and solder a resistor toeach lead - then use the resistor leads as 'probes' to test the LED (check both ways- again no damage if ALWAYS through a resistor (or 2)

 

Someone else also made mention of the diodes included by Fleischmann in these early models -make sure it is not blocking half the current  (1 way)!

[John ks]

Thanks Phil

Your knowledge has really helped me with this. It's the most complicated I've done so far.

 

Quickly tested it last night the motor turns so that's great. I reduced the 'vmax' to just 50 for now, so it was pretty slow. Just have to fit the gear and test it turning the wheels.

 

However, I have followed the below posted by John ks but the LEDs didn't turn on.

 

Would the low 'vmax' be responsible for this?

Or have I wired something wrong?

Each LED has it's own 1k resistor.

 

The only other thing that has changed is there are left and right pickups from the rear coach but only a right hand from the front coach (the red wire coming from the point above the wheel on my last image).

Would the screw that didn't appear to be doing anything be a pickup from the left side of the front coach (via the live chassis)?

Would the low 'vmax' be responsible for this?        I don't think so

Or have I wired something wrong?                        More likely. I didn't show the polarity of the LEDs in the drawing, assuming that you would know that the (+) LED lead goes to the BLUE common from the decoder & all lighting leads(Yellow,white & blue) are                                                                                    only connected to the decoder

Each LED has it's own 1k resistor.

 

Would the screw that didn't appear to be doing anything be a pickup from the left side of the front coach (via the live chassis)?              Quite possible, If you have worked out how to use the multi-meter then check the continuity from the wheels to the chassis                                                                                                                                                                                                                          where appropriate 

 

 

pictures of both units showing the LEDs at each end & all the wiring might be helpful

John

[Sir TophamHatt]

So... turns out I had the blue wires going into the LEDs the wrong way... No emoji for sheepish!

 

The screw didn't need replacing, neither did the other one on the other side of the motor. I've restricted the motor to 100, which seems to be a good speed too.

 

There's one last thing now.

If the red lights come on when the loco is going 'forward' is this something I have to change at the wires end or can I change it in the CVs?

 

I'm guessing it's yet another soldering job, swap the yellow and white wires on the LEDs?

Edited July 17, 2018 by Sir TophamHatt

[Phil S]

Directional Red/White can be swapped in cVs in most decoders -BUT it is a lot easier to get it right whilst the loco is in pieces - and swap yellow and white physically - then it will always be right whenever you reset the decoder,or if you refer back to it when doing your next conversion 8-)

 

Have you also used heat shrink sleeving to cover the joins (once corrected) - better than using insulating tape or sellotape.

 

IF you had opted for the trailer to be separated - so as to run the powered car on its own, then the power car's rear set of lights could be wired off F3 and F4 (for example)   - but that is also when its easier to have used 2 decoders, with 1 in each.

 

now enjoy running it -its what its all for.   [ I've been spending the day repairing garden railway buildings - as it has been cooler here today !! ]

[John ks]

If the red lights come on when the loco is going 'forward' is this something I have to change at the wires end or can I change it in the CVs?

 

If you mean that the Red & White lights come on in the front unit when going forward

then the wiring will have to be altered

 

there are a few ways you can control Head & Tail lights

 

One,                             head and tail lights are both controlled by function 0

Function 0 Forward :- A end headlight & B end tail light on the WHITE decoder output

Function 0 Reverse :- B end headlight & A end tail light on the YELLOW decoder output

 

Two                             Head lights by function 0.

                                   Tail lights by Functions 1 & 2

 

Function 0 Forward :- A end headlight WHITE decoder output

Function 0 Reverse :- B end headlight YELLOW decoder output

Function 1               :- A end tail light (red) GREEN decoder output

Function 2               :- B end tail light (red) PURPLE decoder output

 

With the second method the headlights work normally but the tail lights are manually controlled by functions 1 & 2 & are not directional

With some remapping of functions the tail lights can be controlled by a single function & can be directional

 

Hope this helps more then it confuses

John

[Sir TophamHatt]

Have you also used heat shrink sleeving to cover the joins (once corrected) - better than using insulating tape or sellotape.

Indeed! I have

 

 

 

If the red lights come on when the loco is going 'forward' is this something I have to change at the wires end or can I change it in the CVs?

If you mean that the Red & White lights come on in the front unit when going forward then the wiring will have to be altered

 

I wired the decoder properly (first in a long time!) so when I select forward on the controller, the train travels forward but the red lights are on at the front instead of white.

 

When I reverse the direction, the white lights then turn on at the back.

 

I guess changing CV29 wouldn't work as I'll have the same problem but in the other direction?

 

I rarely/never reset decoders so happy to change the correct CV numbers to change this, but if it means getting the soldering iron out again, if it means it's fixed, then it's fixed.

 

Here's some photos of the finished loco though:

 

I didn't have any warm white LEDs but I can change this later if I can't "yellow" them another way.

 

Edited July 18, 2018 by Sir TophamHatt

[John ks]

If the powered unit is considered to be the front

 

The White wire on the powered unit goes to White LED & yellow wire to red LED (bottom pic looks to be correct)

 

If you set the DCC throttle to forward, then the White LED on the powered unit & the Red LED on the dummy unit should light & the train should go forward(powered unit leading)

If the dummy unit is leading then I would change the wires to the motor IE orange to motor black & grey to motor red

 

John

[RedgateModels]

if you fancy tackling the original motor faceplate here's what I did with Hornby's version ....

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3538 

 

not for the faint hearted!