Wiring 4 main line feeds across a junction

[Grafarman]

Hi All

The layout is OO and is DC analogue.

All the points are electrofrog with their frogs attached to switches for polarity change.

All good so far...!

 

Please see the diagram below, showing the 4 main lines (it was the best I could do with MS Paint!).

The various colours indicate the controllers and their respective feeds to the tracks.

The red lines indicate insulated joiners ie rail breaks.

 

I wish to be able to do the following:

Cross from 4 to 2 and 2 to 4

Cross from 3 to 1 and 1 to 3

Be able to run trains from 4 on 3 (albeit briefly) and 3 on 4.

 

 

How do I wire it up so I can do the above?  Do I need 'Cab control' or something? I've really no idea and would welcome some help please.

 

Many thanks

David

Edited May 25, 2018 by Grafarman

[Grafarman]

Apologies; the picture didn't load; I'll try again...

 

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

Don't you mean run trains from 1 to 2 and vice versa?

 

Are the diamonds live frog as well?

 

I won't go into too much detail (not easy to explain these things in writing) but cab control is not essential in these circumstances but it is very desirable. Given the various routes possible, you would want some of the sections to be controllable by several of the controllers (may as well be all of them).

 

The alternative is to introduce a route setting option. According to the route set, the signal (interlocked) controls the current to all the places that the train is signalled to run to. This is a bit more complex to do but much more satisfying to operate. You effectively arrive at the same result as with DCC - indeed better because you won't be able to run trains into each other.

[Grafarman]

Don't you mean run trains from 1 to 2 and vice versa?

 

Are the diamonds live frog as well?

 

I won't go into too much detail (not easy to explain these things in writing) but cab control is not essential in these circumstances but it is very desirable. Given the various routes possible, you would want some of the sections to be controllable by several of the controllers (may as well be all of them).

 

The alternative is to introduce a route setting option. According to the route set, the signal (interlocked) controls the current to all the places that the train is signalled to run to. This is a bit more complex to do but much more satisfying to operate. You effectively arrive at the same result as with DCC - indeed better because you won't be able to run trains into each other.

Apologies there are no diamonds they're all individual points, some back to back...

The main lines are effectively Up and Down running parallel in different directions so the need is to cross from one set to the other ie 1 to 3 etc...

Hope that helps explain it - I've no idea how to install cab control or the idea you suggested so any pointers would be great!

Many thanks

David

[DCB]

It is ideal for cab control

 

I would  fit 4 way rotary selector switches to all the relevant feeds, the two outer ones on lines 1 and 4 and isolate at their outer ends, the middle feed on line 2 and the centre of those crossovers on road 3 or automate with relays operated by point switches.  The switches would select feeds from the various roads not controllers.  

 

To run from 1 to 3 turn all the 1/2/3 switches to 1 and run across. setting 1 and 3 tracks to the same controller.  From 4 to 2 set 2/3/4  to 4  for normal set 2 to 2  and 3 to 3 etc. 

 

Without cab control I can't see it working.     I would leave at least 2 feet of section beyond the points so a fast approaching train cant get to the crossover if you make a mistake. 

 

DCC males it a lot easier to have an almighty crash so it is ideal if you have small children.  Tornado hitting Evening Star head on is hilarious when you are four

[Ron Solly]

One of many re cab control

http://www.rail.felgall.com/cc.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/clone/rail/control.html

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/6100-dc-cab-control-the-basics/

[Grafarman]

It is ideal for cab control

 

I would  fit 4 way rotary selector switches to all the relevant feeds, the two outer ones on lines 1 and 4 and isolate at their outer ends, the middle feed on line 2 and the centre of those crossovers on road 3 or automate with relays operated by point switches.  The switches would select feeds from the various roads not controllers.  

 

To run from 1 to 3 turn all the 1/2/3 switches to 1 and run across. setting 1 and 3 tracks to the same controller.  From 4 to 2 set 2/3/4  to 4  for normal set 2 to 2  and 3 to 3 etc. 

 

Without cab control I can't see it working.     I would leave at least 2 feet of section beyond the points so a fast approaching train cant get to the crossover if you make a mistake. 

 

DCC males it a lot easier to have an almighty crash so it is ideal if you have small children.  Tornado hitting Evening Star head on is hilarious when you are four

 

Haha yes indeed...  ok, so cab control seems the way forward, so I just need a very simplistic set of instructions as to what switches to use and how to wire them up...

 

Thanks

 

David

[Grafarman]

One of many re cab control

http://www.rail.felgall.com/cc.htm

http://www.angelfire.com/clone/rail/control.html

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/6100-dc-cab-control-the-basics/

 

Many thanks for these; two of them I've actually looked at before starting this topic, but I will have to revisit them as I didn't know if cab control was right for this scenario so didn't go into them in much depth.  I do confess to knowing absolutely nothing about electronics, wiring, switches and so on so the terminology seemed a bit 'foreign' to me at the time, but I'll persevere!

 

David

[Joseph_Pestell]

It makes much more sense as a layout if those are all turnouts rather than diamonds.

 

Cab control is easy to wire in this case. Only difference is that each section (and I think that you have more than you need) has a six-way rotary switch instead of a conventional on-off switch. Six-way rotaries are quite cheap from the likes of Maplin. Don't buy from a model railway retailer.

 

One feed wire from each controller to a connector on the panel and then from each of those four connectors:

controller one to pole two of each switch

controller two to pole three of each switch

controller three to pole four of each switch

controller four to pole five of each switch.

 

So poles one and six become "off" positions. You could of course change this and perhaps make pole 4 an off-position, with poles 5 & 6 linked to controllers 3 and 4..

 

Then a wire from the common pole of each switch to the feed side of the track.

 

All the return wires come back directly to terminal on the panel and then to the controllers.

[Grafarman]

It makes much more sense as a layout if those are all turnouts rather than diamonds.

 

Cab control is easy to wire in this case. Only difference is that each section (and I think that you have more than you need) has a six-way rotary switch instead of a conventional on-off switch. Six-way rotaries are quite cheap from the likes of Maplin. Don't buy from a model railway retailer.

 

One feed wire from each controller to a connector on the panel and then from each of those four connectors:

controller one to pole two of each switch

controller two to pole three of each switch

controller three to pole four of each switch

controller four to pole five of each switch.

 

So poles one and six become "off" positions. You could of course change this and perhaps make pole 4 an off-position, with poles 5 & 6 linked to controllers 3 and 4..

 

Then a wire from the common pole of each switch to the feed side of the track.

 

All the return wires come back directly to terminal on the panel and then to the controllers.

Ah thank you I think I'm getting it now - so if I have 3 sections I need a 6-way rotary switch for each so any of the 4 controllers can operate any section...? And the switch uses the +ve (say) feed whilst the -ve of each track feed goes back to the controller? Is that right?

BTW Maplins is no more so will have to plunder Ebay or something...!

 

Thanks again

 

David

[Grafarman]

Is this the sort of switch I need....?

 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F183145353878

[DCB]

Is this the sort of switch I need....?

 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F183145353878

It would do but its way overkill. the plastic type should be ok for DC 1 amp (Not DCC where potentially current may exceed 1 amp)  and usually cost a couple of quid. I will have a look on Ebay myself later when my good laptop has finished installing a win 10 downgrade.

 

I have used Cab control with 4 controllers for 30 odd years but recently tI have abandoned common return.  Common return and Cab control do not necessarily go together. 

[Grafarman]

It would do but its way overkill. the plastic type should be ok for DC 1 amp (Not DCC where potentially current may exceed 1 amp)  and usually cost a couple of quid. I will have a look on Ebay myself later when my good laptop has finished installing a win 10 downgrade.

 

I have used Cab control with 4 controllers for 30 odd years but recently tI have abandoned common return.  Common return and Cab control do not necessarily go together.

 

Oh ok thank you I'll hold back for a bit; please explain about 'common return' please.

 

David

[Ron Solly]

Common return

 

http://www.rail.felgall.com/crw.htm

[Joseph_Pestell]

Ah thank you I think I'm getting it now - so if I have 3 sections I need a 6-way rotary switch for each so any of the 4 controllers can operate any section...? And the switch uses the +ve (say) feed whilst the -ve of each track feed goes back to the controller? Is that right?

BTW Maplins is no more so will have to plunder Ebay or something...!

 

Thanks again

 

David

 

Yes, you've got it.

 

I know about Maplins. But I think a few are still open getting rid of remaining stock.

 

Worth noting that any 6-way rotary I have ever seen had 2 poles. So you can potentially link up other stuff in tandem.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Is this the sort of switch I need....?

 

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F183145353878

 

Yes, but that's pretty expensive. Probably a higher rating than you need.

 

On that same page, above, you have a link to a 6-way, 2-pole switch at just 99p. Note that none these seem to include the knob.

[Joseph_Pestell]

With regard to common return, it saves on wiring but can sometimes produce odd moments where two controllers seem to get some control over the same train.

 

If wiring common return, all your -ve wires come back to the panel on one terminal and then a wire back to the controllers and a bus between all their -ve terminals.

 

If you don't want common return, the 6-way, 2-pole switch comes into its own. You simply repeat the exact same pattern of wiring on the -ve side as the +ve side using the second set of terminals on each switch.

 

Edit to add: ISTR that common return is NOT suitable if you have feedback controllers.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell

[Chimer]

Hopefully this will help, although I've only shown 2 controllers and 2 sections, and on-off-on (double throw) switches instead of the rotaries you will need …

 

 

In both cases, Section 1 is shown switched to Controller 1, and Section 2 to Controller 2.  To pass a train from one section to the other, you switch both sections to the same controller and drive across the section break.  You can have multiple feeds to the same section from the track side of the switches if you want.  The important point to note is that you are selecting a controller for the section, not a section for the controller.

 

The left-hand picture shows DCB's preferred non-common return wiring using double-pole switches.  Both wires, feed (red and blue) and return (green and gold), pass through the switches.  Four sections feeding into rotary switches will need a steady hand with a soldering iron.

 

The right-hand picture is common return using single-pole switches.  The feed wires (red and blue) pass through the switches, but the common return (black) goes from both sections to both controllers.  Obviously the wiring is simpler, but there is a body of opinion that it can produce odd problems.  I don't understand why it should (doubtless someone will explain at length in a minute, it's a regular argument on RMWeb), but suffice it to say I don't use it myself!

 

Cheers

 

Chris

[Suzie]

I think that common return (to reduce the wiring) and cab control (to maximise flexibility of driving the train all the way with the same controller) will be the best way to go.

 

If you want something a bit simpler and intuitive without the myriad of rotary switches (at least a dozen for that layout) you could just feed at the centre and use power routing on auxiliary switches on the points to provide the feeds to left and right.

[Ron Solly]

Common return works with mains power single wire earth return in Australian country : Microwave radio transmission used earth as the return & telephone exchanges used a common which was also earthed for the 3 voltages of24 , 50 & 130  DC.

 

In my DC days, I  had 6 controllers and was wired for common control/return combined with 40v DC, 12v DC, 19VDC, 15AC for other various uses BUT they all had individual transformers

 

My DCC layout has a common rail return used for not only the DCC power but also the ancillary supplies I used on my DC days.

Edited May 26, 2018 by Ron Solly

[kevinlms]

Oh ok thank you I'll hold back for a bit; please explain about 'common return' please.

 

David

Nothing wrong with Common Return & Cab Control as a combination. There is one rule that needs to followed with common return and that is each controller MUST have its own transformer tapping. Attempting to use the same power source for two or more controllers, will lead to a world of pain.

 

Nor is there any problem with feedback controllers.

 

If I were considering using DCC in the future, then I would NOT use Common Return, especially on a large layout.

[AndyID]

There is one rule that needs to followed with common return and that is each controller MUST have its own transformer tapping. Attempting to use the same power source for two or more controllers, will lead to a world of pain.

 

It's not unusual for there to be an exception to a rule, and that one has an exception too. You can use a single dual-rail power supply with plus 12 and minus 12 volt outputs. The 0 volt rail goes to common. Each controller swings the track voltage positive or negative relative to common.

[Grafarman]

Thank you all for your input; I think for me the 'belt and braces' approach of 2-pole switching seems the best in this instance.  I believe I can get away with 4 rotary switches so each loop can be switchable to each controller on demand so facilitating the crossover as and when needed.

 

Question: Does anyone know if there are any 6-way 2-pole rotary switches ready-wired or that just have a screw terminal block attached, or is someone willing to wire some up for me?!  My soldering skills are limited to track feeds (blobs of solder on the rail) and point motors (usually end up smothered in it!), and looking at the pictures on Ebay the terminals are way too small for my shaky fingers...!

 

Many thanks

 

David