Will they ever restore the Oxenholme - Windermere service ?

[Reorte]

It is all too easy for enthusiasts to come up with fancy ideas but some really don't have a clue as to how the railway works and what is involved. I can't see a steam operation there being practical, involving up to a 20 hour day! Who would man it? Certainly not volunteers.

I don't think anyone was being particularly serious with those suggestions and suggesting they were practical, they seem tongue in cheek, or just idle daydreaming at most.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Reorte

[great central]

 

 

Thanks for the detailed explanation Sandpiper. I think we can all agree that the fragmented nature and management of the railway has been a factor in this whole sorry mess . One of the issues I can foresee , is the question by DafT, if a rail replacement bus can operate so effectively , then why do we need to maintain the infrastructure of the railway at all . From the normal passengers point of view its still an incredible mess.

By implication, it could be said that any and all replacement bus services operate effectively, as in they get passengers around disruption whatever the cause. The fact that they are subject to the vagaries of the roads is then a minor concern as nobody complains about being stuck in traffic disruption to the same degree they do on rail.

Should stop a lot of the complaints as road disruption is just something to be expected due to the amount of vehicles on the roads. Also because the roads are effectively 'privatised' down to individual levels there's no one to complain to apart from yourself!

There solved it at a stroke! Provides a lot more jobs, because you'd need a driver for the equivalent number of passengers in each coach of a train at least, so say an 8 coach train needing one driver and, possibly, a guard now needs at least 8 drivers unless you're going down the driverless buses route? Another plus point to this is lots more buses so more RFL and fuel duty at least to the treasury, not to mention the tax and NI from the drivers.

Therefore by extension we just turn all the railway lines into busways? I think that may have been suggested before:)

Edited June 5, 2018 by great central

[Sandpiper]

Ok, but a couple of questions.....

 

 

When the TPE franchise was originally set up in 2004 it included services from Manchester Airport to Barrow and Windermere. Manchester to Blackpool services were added later, and later still Manchester to Glasgow and Edinburgh services. That original TPE franchise finally came up for renewal in 2016 after having been extended a couple of times. The DfT felt that the services from Manchester to Blackpool, Barrow and Windermere didn't really fit within the TPE franchise so moved those service groups to the new Northern franchise. Both the Northern and TPE franchises were renewed at the same time in April 2016 to make the exchange relatively straightforward. Note that the services weren't moved from one company to another, they were moved from one franchise to another and when that decision was made it was not known which company would win the bid to run the franchise. Sometimes it is important to separate the franchises from the companies that run the franchises. They are not the same thing which is a bit confusing.

 

With regard to the number of units, only one would be required for a self contained service and the unit could be worked empty to and from either Barrow or Blackpool for servicing. However there would be no one available to crew it as Northern have decided to utilise the crews elsewhere as a temporary measure. The Windermere branch can be run relatively easily in the short term by replacement buses as it more a less a self contained service making it easier to manage the alternative resources.

 

The problems within the Northern franchise at present are a result of a number of complicated factors involving government policy, the DfT, Network Rail and Northern. The situation is undoubtedly a mess and needs resolving as soon as possible. The temporary loss of rail services to Windermere is a consequence of that mess rather than an isolated issue, but laying all the blame at the door of one individual player is not entirely fair. All the participants need to work hard to get it sorted, not just on the Windermere line but right across the Northern network. 

Edited June 5, 2018 by Sandpiper

[Joseph_Pestell]

Ok, but a couple of questions from an ignorant. 

 

If TPE were running the Windermere branch without problems, why was the operation handed over to Northern?

 

If the Windermere branch is an extended siding with no pointwork, how many units does it need to run a regular service? (Hint: my guess is probably less than 2).

 

If refuelling and servicing is necessary during the week, can't some form of roster be devised which changes over units at the relevant time?

 

 

If Northern cannot run the Windermere branch, why would anyone think it could cope with a more complex system?

 

TPE did not run Windermere as a branch. Trains ran all the way to Manchester Airport.

 

With the transfer to Northern, it has become a branch shuttle again (I think). That may be not the best way to run it, but, if it does remain as an independent branch, some sort of completely independent operation might well be the best option available rather like the IoW.

[great central]

TPE did not run Windermere as a branch. Trains ran all the way to Manchester Airport.

 

With the transfer to Northern, it has become a branch shuttle again (I think). That may be not the best way to run it, but, if it does remain as an independent branch, some sort of completely independent operation might well be the best option available rather like the IoW.

Another isolated branch option is, I understand, between Cleethorpes and Barton on Humber? It's nominally a Northern service but operated, at least in part by TPE. The plan is to transfer it into the EMT franchise, which would see it operated from Lincoln depot.

I've no idea how that would work but presumably in a similar way to the Windermere branch?

[Wheatley]

The problems within the Northern franchise at present are a result of a number of complicated factors involving government policy, the DfT, Network Rail and Northern.

 

Just to expand on Sandpiper's and 31A's comments, most of the Northern timetable planning team has been there for years and they haven't suddenly forgotten how to do it since Christmas. 

[Sandpiper]

Once the current mess is sorted out Windermere should have some services through to Manchester Airport again. This is due to happen in December of this year. However the plans for enhanced services to Windermere and Barrow are to a large extent reliant on the new class 195 units being delivered on time. These timetables changes should effectively reverse most of the cuts that have happened to the Barrow and Windermere service group in the last ten years. Most of the cuts were actually made whilst TPE was running the services but again they weren't entirely down to TPE themselves and there was a fair amount of politics involved.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Sandpiper

[locoholic]

That it is even an option to cancel 100% of the trains on a line that runs in one of the most popular holiday areas in the UK at the start of the holiday season is disgraceful.

 

History shows that interruptions to services due to strikes in the bad old days of BR meant business was lost to the roads. There is already some evidence that the recent growth in passenger numbers had stopped or even gone into reverse. The current farce is likely to make that trend worse.

Edited June 5, 2018 by locoholic

[Mike Storey]

Disregarding the Northern bashing, which seems as politically motivated as anything else, the key question seems to be much as for the GTR problems - if they (NR/Northern/DfT) knew there would be problems of this magnitude several months ago, why did they not postpone the introduction of the new timetable?

 

I know there are complications that would have required a number of changes, due to stock transfers (with consequent traction training issues) and the closure of Lime Street for a couple of months, but if they only had four months to produce a completely revised timetable instead of the one intended, why go for such extensive changes? Or was there simply no alternative, due to other factors?

 

I also note they are still running more trains overall than they did before the TT change, and have successfully recruited more than enough drivers to run the full service, which is a feature completely different to the GTR situation.

 

Northern have also stated the Windermere branch train service should be restored in two weeks (but I note use of the word "initially" which leaves that timescale open to interpretation).

[Talltim]

It is all too easy for enthusiasts to come up with fancy ideas but some really don't have a clue as to how the railway works and what is involved.

Bit like some running the ‘real’ railway it would seem... Edited June 5, 2018 by Talltim

[Reorte]

That it is even an option to cancel 100% of the trains on a line that runs in one of the most popular holiday areas in the UK at the start of the holiday season is disgraceful.

 

History shows that interruptions to services due to strikes in the bad old days of BR meant business was lost to the roads. There is already some evidence that the recent growth in passenger numbers had stopped or even gone into reverse. The current farce is likely to make that trend worse.

Attitudes have changed, so I don't think that sort of move will have the same effect as it once did. Roads were the great, wonderful future when BR was losing passengers to them, and the time of that view has passed. And considering the crowding it may be no bad thing growth has stopped (although is it matched by stalling in the growth of travel in general? Hopefully!)

 

So it looks bad but the people saying the self-contained nature of the line makes going to buses for a while seem like the best way of manage a shortage of currently usable resources sound convincing. It's a situation that they shouldn't have got in to in the first place, but given that it's happened is this the best way of dealing with it? Looks like it.

[Sandpiper]

.....some sort of completely independent operation might well be the best option available rather like the IoW.

 

That's a tempting idea but a potentially difficult one to manage. The IOW line is a completely self contained system with everything it needs to run the service. The Windermere line is a long siding with no facilities other than the stations. Trains still need to return to a suitable maintenance depot each day for fuel, emptying of toilet retention tanks and any other necessary servicing.

 

That's not to say it couldn't be done but I think the long term plan that Northern have for the line should see the service improved considerably compared to what was left behind by TPE. Whilst that's of no help to passengers at the moment, there is actually a plan for the line's future and from what I have seen of it, it is a decent looking plan. I think everyone involved working hard to ensure the plan is actually delivered would be a better option than just starting from scratch again.

Edited June 5, 2018 by Sandpiper

[Sandpiper]

Right, I have to go and play trains now, if there are any for me to play with. 

[MarcD]

I think that from a locals point of view it feels like a case of mind over matter they don't mind as we don't matter.

Having visited the capital earlier in the summer they had overground, underground and busses every 15 minutes. If you are on a bus route you are lucky to get one every 30 mins during the day. This is cut in half after 6, and less on a Sunday. Our train service is better than the busses or they were.

If we want people in the north to stop using their cars we need to have public transport we can use at a price we can afford.

[great central]

 

Having visited the capital earlier in the summer they had overground, underground and busses every 15 minutes.

Do they all go to Wimbledon though??

[sem34090]

Full marks to Peter Hendy for going on TV last night to make clear that the timetable is a Network Rail responsibility.

 

Although some of the problems highlighted above around driver training may also contribute, it is wrong that the media have put all the blame with the train operating companies.

Late to this party...

 

If the TOC's have no involvement then how come GTR down here have been proclaiming their own new timetable as theirs and have been trying to big it up? Or is this another sign of GTR's incompetence.

 

It would help if they had some railwaymen/women involved somewhere in their upper management.

[Reorte]

I think that from a locals point of view it feels like a case of mind over matter they don't mind as we don't matter.

Having visited the capital earlier in the summer they had overground, underground and busses every 15 minutes. If you are on a bus route you are lucky to get one every 30 mins during the day. This is cut in half after 6, and less on a Sunday. Our train service is better than the busses or they were.

If we want people in the north to stop using their cars we need to have public transport we can use at a price we can afford.

There are a lot more people to be moved around there, and that's the main reason for more frequent services. Personally speaking I find once an hour sufficient (unless there are changes involved that just miss out).

[woodenhead]

I think that from a locals point of view it feels like a case of mind over matter they don't mind as we don't matter.

Having visited the capital earlier in the summer they had overground, underground and busses every 15 minutes. If you are on a bus route you are lucky to get one every 30 mins during the day. This is cut in half after 6, and less on a Sunday. Our train service is better than the busses or they were.

If we want people in the north to stop using their cars we need to have public transport we can use at a price we can afford.

How much non train users subsidise the network to aid those who do use trains is a very different question than what is happening at the moment with Northern and GTR, would suggest that is a topic in itself and not one for this particular thread.

[31A]

Disregarding the Northern bashing, which seems as politically motivated as anything else, the key question seems to be much as for the GTR problems - if they (NR/Northern/DfT) knew there would be problems of this magnitude several months ago, why did they not postpone the introduction of the new timetable?

 

I know there are complications that would have required a number of changes, due to stock transfers (with consequent traction training issues) and the closure of Lime Street for a couple of months, but if they only had four months to produce a completely revised timetable instead of the one intended, why go for such extensive changes? Or was there simply no alternative, due to other factors?

 

I also note they are still running more trains overall than they did before the TT change, and have successfully recruited more than enough drivers to run the full service, which is a feature completely different to the GTR situation.

 

Northern have also stated the Windermere branch train service should be restored in two weeks (but I note use of the word "initially" which leaves that timescale open to interpretation).

 

 

I wondered that too.  Whereas I can see to some extent a political desire to bring in the enhanced Thameslink service as soon as possible, due to not wanting to see benefits of the billions of pounds worth of investment postponed again, I can't think of any such reason in the north that would have prevented the new timetables being put off until December.  It would have meant TPE deferring their new timetable as well, as Northern and TPE are inextricably linked in this regard (TPE having taken over stops between Huddersfield and Manchester that were formerly served by Northern, for example), but it seems to be overlooked in all this that TPE's performance since 20th May has been dire as well, as if they weren't fully prepared either.  But they probably affect proportionately fewer passengers.  One reason that springs to mind (although just speculation on my part) is that both operators should have completely new trains being introduced from December and the 'learning curve' might have been too steep to bring all the changes in at once. Or cynically, did 'Transport for the North' want to show some early improvements to give them credibility?

[Titan]

Do they all go to Wimbledon though??

 

Not all, but they are common.

[Mike Storey]

Late to this party...

 

If the TOC's have no involvement then how come GTR down here have been proclaiming their own new timetable as theirs and have been trying to big it up? Or is this another sign of GTR's incompetence.

 

It would help if they had some railwaymen/women involved somewhere in their upper management.

 

The GTR senior team is about as experienced in railway operations as you can get. Charles Horton as CEO, been around the block and back, including being Chair of the Institute of Railway Operators. Nick Brown (with whom I trained in operations management on BR in 1981) is their Chief Operating Officer and has been MD and COO of several TOCs and of London Rail and Underground for TfL. He was specifically brought in by GoVia to see through the introduction of the new services. He was brought in for a two year contract, from November 2016, and has decided that he will leave as planned. I am aware of a possible personal reason for that, so cast no aspersions about timing. His replacement in September, will be Patrick Verweer, who is equally an operations heavyweight, but I think he has been dropped in it from a great height......

[The Border Reiver]

NORTHERN could be stripped of its franchise to run services in Cumbria following crunch talks between the transport secretary and local MPs.

This week the clamour for an urgent response to recent rail chaos has been deafening as the government came under intense fire from both opposition MPs and its own.

MPs John Woodcock and Tim Farron last night met transport secretary Chris Grayling to demand he 'get to grips' with the dire situation in our area.

The MPs were told the issue of removing Northern's franchise, and giving it back to Transpennine would be seriously looked at over the coming weeks.

 

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/Rail-minister-to-consider-stripping-Northern-of-rail-franchise-in-Cumbria-9a4c37d5-8118-4f81-a5a8-21b1af306a08-ds

[Joseph_Pestell]

NORTHERN could be stripped of its franchise to run services in Cumbria following crunch talks between the transport secretary and local MPs.

This week the clamour for an urgent response to recent rail chaos has been deafening as the government came under intense fire from both opposition MPs and its own.

MPs John Woodcock and Tim Farron last night met transport secretary Chris Grayling to demand he 'get to grips' with the dire situation in our area.

The MPs were told the issue of removing Northern's franchise, and giving it back to Transpennine would be seriously looked at over the coming weeks.

 

http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/Rail-minister-to-consider-stripping-Northern-of-rail-franchise-in-Cumbria-9a4c37d5-8118-4f81-a5a8-21b1af306a08-ds

 

That demonstrates just how little understanding there is of this situation among the political classes (on all sides).

 

Transferring operations to another TOU would make no difference at all. It's a zero-sum game. Only so many train paths, so many trains and so many drivers. Shifting these "deck chairs" around the "deck" makes no difference. The ship is holed and sinking rapidly.

 

Or perhaps they do understand and are just too keen to score some political points? I don't know whether it is better to have people who are honest but incompetent or competent but dishonest.

[Joseph_Pestell]

That's a tempting idea but a potentially difficult one to manage. The IOW line is a completely self contained system with everything it needs to run the service. The Windermere line is a long siding with no facilities other than the stations. Trains still need to return to a suitable maintenance depot each day for fuel, emptying of toilet retention tanks and any other necessary servicing.

 

That's not to say it couldn't be done but I think the long term plan that Northern have for the line should see the service improved considerably compared to what was left behind by TPE. Whilst that's of no help to passengers at the moment, there is actually a plan for the line's future and from what I have seen of it, it is a decent looking plan. I think everyone involved working hard to ensure the plan is actually delivered would be a better option than just starting from scratch again.

 

Not really so difficult for a completely standalone branch.

 

Space available at various places to create a fuelling/maintenance facility. And no need for toilets on a short run.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just been listening to yet another BBC report on the troubles at Northern. Usual journalists' c**p about how it all works so much better abroad.

 

They need to get out more. When I was out in Denmark a couple of weeks ago, the airport service was running very poorly. And that presumably gets some priority.

 

And what about France? Lucky if you get a train there at all.