Motor problem in Hornby J13 (X04?)

[highpeakman]

I have an old Hornby J13 (R.396) that I bought many years ago to use as a guinea pig for some experimental bodywork but never got around to completing. If I have ever actually run it before then it would only have been for short bursts.

 

It is fitted with what I thought is an X04 motor although the service sheet calls it an X03.

 

I have just dug it out of the store box and thought I would test it.

 

After a good clean up of the wheels (including the backs where the pick ups are) and a light oiling of the motor bearings and gears this engine started off running quite well on my rolling road. It runs in both directions and responds to the speed control quite nicely - exactly as expected. It is running smoothly and without hesitation.

 

However after about 30 seconds of the above behaviour it slows and stops completely. Nothing will make it move. If left alone for about 5 minutes it will start up and run well - for about 30 seconds again. Exactly the same in either direction. And so on.

 

I guess that suggests it is binding somewhere (although it all seems well lubricated) and heat perhaps(?) so that waiting and cooling allows it to run again. Actually I am not sure I see it as a heat problem because if I turn the power off and immediately back on it will not run but if I wait just 10 seconds then it will make about 2 revolutions before stopping - as I progressively wait longer before re applying power it runs for longer each time. I would not have thought such short periods allow much cooling.

 

LIke many of the older members of this forum I used to have many engines using the X04 but do not recall seeing a problem of this nature.

 

Has anyone any suggestions about where to look and what may be causing this please?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Pound to a penny it's the controller cannot manage the current supply this old motor requires, and its protection is tripping out. Run the J13 until it stops, leave the controller on, and immediately put another proven good runner loco on the track. If ti doesn't move then there's no power on the rails.

[highpeakman]

It sounds like there could be a short circuit caused either by the little gaps between the copper segments being full of carbon dust which will seriously slow the motor down or the insulting sleeve on 1 side of the motor spring could be partly melted which could be touching the other brush.

 

Have you tried taking the motor off the chassis and turning it by hand or under power.

 

Also, while the motor is off the chassis,  try pushing it back and forth. 

 

If there is a problem with the wheels or binding you will feel it because it will get a bit tight then loosen off again or it will click.

 

If this is the case it is possible the wheel quatering is slightly out but just enough to cause a problem.

 

Thanks for your response.

 

I am certain that there is no short circuit as the controller (Gaugemaster) shows no indication of that. Also the motor does not stop suddenly but slows down before it stops. Also my own experience does not make me think it is that.

 

I did remove the motor from the chassis and it shows the same behaviour when running freely off the chassis so it is not binding in the chassis.

 

I will look at the armature slots but they look quite clean, as does the armature itself. I would have thought that any problem there would not allow the motor to restart  so easily within a few minutes? - might be wrong though.

 

Also the motor does not appear to have seized in any way once it has stopped - it still revolves easily by hand immediately after it has stopped running under electric power.

[highpeakman]

Pound to a penny it's the controller cannot manage the current supply this old motor requires, and its protection is tripping out. Run the J13 until it stops, leave the controller on, and immediately put another proven good runner loco on the track. If ti doesn't move then there's no power on the rails.

 

That's a good point. I have seen that before in fact.

 

Time to dig the old Duette out of the cupboard!

[highpeakman]

Pound to a penny it's the controller cannot manage the current supply this old motor requires, and its protection is tripping out. Run the J13 until it stops, leave the controller on, and immediately put another proven good runner loco on the track. If ti doesn't move then there's no power on the rails.

 

Tried using the old H&M Duette - guess what? It ran continuously! 

 

The Gaugemaster series E obviously finds it difficult to cope with the demands of this motor.

 

I have seen this problem before (a long time ago) but admit that I had quite forgotten about it.

 

Thank you very much for reminding me and solving the problem.

[stewartingram]

Firstly the X04 is the same motor as the X03. With the latter, the main difference is the plastic worm (and also a different gear on the axle) which is a lower ratio gearing. There are also other minor changes which I presume were cost-cutting, such as a shorter shaft on the armature and lack of felt pads for oiling - nothing to bother about though.

Remove the motor and try it away from the chassis. That will prove either motor or chassis fault

As an ex service engineer for the former Hornby Service agents in my area, I have seen many 100's of these (or more?). Without seeing the motor, I would go for cleaning the slots in the commutator with a fine pin. If then it still trips, and you can see it sparking, then in theory that is the end. But I have managed to repair a number of these. More in a moment**.

Or it could be the magnet has lost its power. Relatively rare in an X04 but not unknown. I have a remagnetiser**.

Lubrication, if needed, is a minimal spot of oil on the back bearing of the armature, also on the front one, but keep it away from the commutator or brushes.

 

Current (if you have a meter) should be in the 150-250mA range. Any more and it needs attention.

Do NOT remove the magnet from its keeper.

And what ever you do, don't use 3-in-1 oil (affects plastic) or WD40 (ghastly stuff, a bodger's tool).

 

**Any more problems get back to me.

 

Stewart

 

Stewart

[highpeakman]

Firstly the X04 is the same motor as the X03. With the latter, the main difference is the plastic worm (and also a different gear on the axle) which is a lower ratio gearing. There are also other minor changes which I presume were cost-cutting, such as a shorter shaft on the armature and lack of felt pads for oiling - nothing to bother about though.

Remove the motor and try it away from the chassis. That will prove either motor or chassis fault

As an ex service engineer for the former Hornby Service agents in my area, I have seen many 100's of these (or more?). Without seeing the motor, I would go for cleaning the slots in the commutator with a fine pin. If then it still trips, and you can see it sparking, then in theory that is the end. But I have managed to repair a number of these. More in a moment**.

Or it could be the magnet has lost its power. Relatively rare in an X04 but not unknown. I have a remagnetiser**.

Lubrication, if needed, is a minimal spot of oil on the back bearing of the armature, also on the front one, but keep it away from the commutator or brushes.

 

Current (if you have a meter) should be in the 150-250mA range. Any more and it needs attention.

Do NOT remove the magnet from its keeper.

And what ever you do, don't use 3-in-1 oil (affects plastic) or WD40 (ghastly stuff, a bodger's tool).

 

**Any more problems get back to me.

 

Stewart

 

Stewart

 

Stewart

 

Thank you very much for the information on this motor and for providing the benefit of your considerable experience.

 

I designed my test rig to be able to easily put a meter in and check current but haven't done so yet as I ran out of time today (I had to cook our Sunday dinner!) but will do so in the morning.

 

Interesting as i would have expected the Gaugemaster E to be able to supply at least 250mA with ease for a long time so it will be interesting to check out what is happening. It is certainly running well off the Duette but not the Gaugemaster.

 

No, don't worry, no 3 in 1 or WD40!

 

A long time ago I trained in electronic engineering but it was high frequency (microwave) so i know and understand the basics but I don't know much about motors which is the problem.

 

Thank you again.

[Simon G]

I concur with 34C’s suggestion. The gradual slowing down is typical of resettable fuses used in controllers to protect them from current overload. When the resettable fuse detects an overcurrent, it’s resistance increases which then results in the slowing down and stopping of whatever is on the track. I don’t know if the Gaugemaster has one of these fuses, but as it is designed to supply only 300 milliamperes, it wouldn’t be difficult to overload it with an X03/4. However, on a rolling road, with no load, I wouldn’t expect the motor to draw that current if it is in good condition. As well as checking the controller, I would also follow Stewart’s advice on checking the motor. I have a simple rule of thumb for checking the magnet strength of one of these motors. Remove the motor from the chassis, and put a small screwdriver against the magnet. If the motor doesnt fall from the screwdriver under its own weight, the magnet is probably OK.

 

Stewart has remagnetised motors for me before, so I can recommend his service! Alternatively you can replace a weak magnet with a new Neodymium one, which is much more powerful than the original one. I have some if you are interested.

[Dunsignalling]

The Gaugemaster Series E is only rated at 0.3a, which is very little more than these models tend to draw even when in perfect condition, add a bit of drag from dirt or dried-out lubricant on the axles or gears, and things become marginal, a gradual build up of heat will cause the thermal cut-out to activate after a few minutes. The symptoms would tally with what you describe.

 

IIRC, unlike more up-market Gaugemaster models, the Series E doesn't reset automatically when the short/overload is removed; you have to wait for it to cool down. Again, this tallies with your description.

 

I've just revived a neglected Jinty (same chassis) with a full strip-down, degrease, reassemble and lubricate operation. It runs just fine on a Model 100, but that can kick out a full amp. The loco has no magnet issues - when I tried the screwdriver test, it adhered strongly enough to pick up the motor with it.

 

John

Edited June 11, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[highpeakman]

The Gaugemaster Series E is only rated at 0.3a, which is very little more than these models tend to draw even when in perfect condition, add a bit of drag from dirt or dried-out lubricant on the axles or gears, and things become marginal, a gradual build up of heat will cause the thermal cut-out to activate after a few minutes. The symptoms would tally with what you describe.

 

IIRC, unlike more up-market Gaugemaster models, the Series E doesn't reset automatically when the short/overload is removed; you have to wait for it to cool down. Again, this tallies with your description.

 

I've just revived a neglected Jinty (same chassis) with a full strip-down, degrease, reassemble and lubricate operation. It runs just fine on a Model 100, but that can kick out a full amp. The loco has no magnet issues - when I tried the screwdriver test, it adhered strongly enough to pick up the motor with it.

 

John

 

Thanks for the posts from Stewart, Simon G and Dunsignalling.

 

I ran a check this morning with the motor back in the chassis (no body) and, as you all suspected, it was pulling around 400mA and that was obviously making the Gaugemaster E's knees buckle. Your comment about the E's "soft" shutdown is interesting - I am not sure if it is a pure heat related issue or a design function - Gaugemaster's designs have always impressed me so I would not think it is a pure heat issue as such. I note that nothing happens to the "red light" when this happens.

 

The magnet is fine and had already successfully (and repeatedly) grabbed the screwdriver when undoing the screw holding the motor down.

 

Thanks again to everyone for the help.

 

Edit to add: I only use the Gaugemaster occasionally as it is on a rolling road test bed. I normally only use DCC (driven on the road by a Sprog and JMRI on a netbook) but the road has a facility to switch over to the gaugemaster to test new locos on DC before fitting any chips. And, of course, for old models. It is rare for me to run them these days so I had forgotten the limitations of old motors  - I do still have two old Triang Jinties (that I had as a kid) and now remember that I saw this same problem about 4 years ago but sorted myself. Age must be softening my brain!

 

Don

Edited June 11, 2018 by highpeakman