Southern Royal Trains

[Nearholmer]

RMWeb Southernistas,

 

Does anyone know of photos on the web of SR Royal Trains?

 

I’m well aware that the SR used Pullmans, but can’t seem to find pictures. Pictures of pre-grouping ‘royals’ abound, and photos of BR(S) ones too, but for 1923-48 I’ve only found two: a T9 being bulled-up in readiness, and an LN on a train.

 

The headboards look interesting, big round things covering the entire smokebox door, with flags and crests painted on them.

 

Many thanks in advance, Kevin

[Nearholmer]

Very many thanks!

 

I thought that the SR always used Pullmans for Royal Trains, and that all of the pre-grouping royal coaches had been dispersed to other uses in the early 1920s, so that article has truly educated, and corrected, me. For the benefit of anyone else who might chance on this, the exact link is http://www.semgonline.com/coach/coupe/coupe_se07.pdf

 

When the big round headboards, like the ones used for ocean liner specials etc, were used, the four disc code was carried as well.

 

I’m now thinking of getting a beaten-up old tin Hornby Pullman, and painting it green, to represent saloon 1R.

 

Kevin

[CarriageShed]

There are a few scraps online, but not many at first glance.

 

This is an SECR royal saloon:
https://www.mediastorehouse.com/royal-train-bl17842/print/4215857.html

 

This is an artist's rendition of the LBSCR royal train:
https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/london-brighton-and-south-coast-railway-royal-train-9370

 

Not much use in respect of Pullman carriages, unfortunately.

[Northroader]

The link you gave for the SECR royal train shows that it came out the winner for being adopted by the SR as their train, most likely as it was the most recent one, having been built in 1902.

The LSWR built six 47’6” bogie saloons in 1884, 15- 20. Most stayed in general traffic, but no. 17 was rebuilt in 1887 as a Royal saloon replacing an 1877 30’ saloon. The internal arrangements were altered, and it had a clerestory roof. It ran like this until it was downgraded to a picnic saloon in 1913. It ran until 1931, SR no,4107, and after withdrawal the body was sold to become a home. It was removed in 1989. To preservation? No. 20 was rebuilt to a Royal saloon in 1897, No.17 forming a reserve. The roof profile was changed to the then standard elliptical form. It had a new underframe in 1915. It was usually teamed up with a 44’ brake rebuilt as a kitchen van, no.17, an Eagle saloon, and possibly a few more coaches. No.20 waswithdrawn in 1933 as SR no. 4110, but what it functioned as in SR days is unclear.

The LBSC built a Royal train in 1897, again replacing an old saloon, from 1871. This train was five 52’ bogie coaches with clerestory roofs. The main coach was a 12 wheeler, (no. 562, SR 7970) the others eight wheeled, being two saloons (563/4, SR 7971/2) and two brake firsts.(565/6, SR 7766/7) usually used by Edward VII, also featured in Queen Victoria’s funeral. In SR times it was demoted to first class, and teamed up with some more firsts as a businessmen’s express., keeping the mahogany livery until withdrawal in the thirties.

[Nearholmer]

I’ve got a dim recollection that some ex-SECR(?) royal coaches ended-up in the Brookwood Necropolis train at some stage .... need to check.

 

Yes. They were drafted to the Necropolis Train in 1939, because it’s coaches were being used for troop trains, and then destroyed when the station at Waterloo was bombed in 1941.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Nearholmer

[Wickham Green]

 

I’m now thinking of getting a beaten-up old tin Hornby Pullman, and painting it green, to represent saloon 1R.

 

Kevin

It doesn't look much like a Pullman, unfortunately : https://www.flickr.com/photos/31890193@N08/9869780384/

[Dunsignalling]

RMWeb Southernistas,

 

Does anyone know of photos on the web of SR Royal Trains?

 

I’m well aware that the SR used Pullmans, but can’t seem to find pictures. Pictures of pre-grouping ‘royals’ abound, and photos of BR(S) ones too, but for 1923-48 I’ve only found two: a T9 being bulled-up in readiness, and an LN on a train.

 

The headboards look interesting, big round things covering the entire smokebox door, with flags and crests painted on them.

 

Many thanks in advance, Kevin

T9 No.119 was, for many years, the dedicated Royal Engine, consequently retaining full SR livery into the first few years of BR, albeit as 30119.

 

John

[burgundy]

It doesn't look much like a Pullman, unfortunately : https://www.flickr.com/photos/31890193@N08/9869780384/

 

I see from the caption to the photo that the vehicle is classified as Restriction 0, giving it access all across the Southern system. Presumably the Brighton Royal Train would have been built to something like the Brighton's normal (rather generous) loading gauge, which would have restricted it severely.  It is therefore not too hard to understand why the Southern preferred to use a vehicle with widespread availability.

Best wishes 

Eric 

[Wickham Green]

I see from the caption to the photo that the vehicle is classified as Restriction 0, giving it access all across the Southern system. Presumably the Brighton Royal Train would have been built to something like the Brighton's normal (rather generous) loading gauge, which would have restricted it severely.  It is therefore not too hard to understand why the Southern preferred to use a vehicle with widespread availability.

Best wishes 

Eric 

Even 'Restriction 0' wasn't TOTALLY without limits, of course ....... I dread to think what the Southern would have done if the King had wished to travel direct from Canterbury to Whitstable ! ( running via Faversham or Ramsgate would normally be an option )

[Nearholmer]

Something like the below, perhaps?

 

On tinplate 0 representations of the Southern one: you are right about it not looking much like a Pullman, but it does look sufficiently like some Wagon-Lits cars that, if I come across a bashed-up on of them at a cheap price, I think I will give it a go.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Nearholmer

[CarriageShed]

The LSWR built six 47’6” bogie saloons in 1884, 15- 20. Most stayed in general traffic, but no. 17 was rebuilt in 1887 as a Royal saloon replacing an 1877 30’ saloon. The internal arrangements were altered, and it had a clerestory roof. It ran like this until it was downgraded to a picnic saloon in 1913. It ran until 1931, SR no,4107, and after withdrawal the body was sold to become a home. It was removed in 1989. To preservation?

 

Well we certainly know the answer to that question now... thanks to Peter Snow (Great Rail Restorations Ep4 of 5, Channel 4, 27 June 2018).

[chris45lsw]

Well we certainly know the answer to that question now... thanks to Peter Snow (Great Rail Restorations Ep4 of 5, Channel 4, 27 June 2018).

 

The link you gave for the SECR royal train shows that it came out the winner for being adopted by the SR as their train, most likely as it was the most recent one, having been built in 1902.

The LSWR built six 47’6” bogie saloons in 1884, 15- 20. Most stayed in general traffic, but no. 17 was rebuilt in 1887 as a Royal saloon replacing an 1877 30’ saloon. The internal arrangements were altered, and it had a clerestory roof. It ran like this until it was downgraded to a picnic saloon in 1913. It ran until 1931, SR no,4107, and after withdrawal the body was sold to become a home. It was removed in 1989. To preservation? No. 20 was rebuilt to a Royal saloon in 1897, No.17 forming a reserve. The roof profile was changed to the then standard elliptical form. It had a new underframe in 1915. It was usually teamed up with a 44’ brake rebuilt as a kitchen van, no.17, an Eagle saloon, and possibly a few more coaches. No.20 waswithdrawn in 1933 as SR no. 4110, but what it functioned as in SR days is unclear.

The LBSC built a Royal train in 1897, again replacing an old saloon, from 1871. This train was five 52’ bogie coaches with clerestory roofs. The main coach was a 12 wheeler, (no. 562, SR 7970) the others eight wheeled, being two saloons (563/4, SR 7971/2) and two brake firsts.(565/6, SR 7766/7) usually used by Edward VII, also featured in Queen Victoria’s funeral. In SR times it was demoted to first class, and teamed up with some more firsts as a businessmen’s express., keeping the mahogany livery until withdrawal in the thirties.

No 17 and 20 were actually SR Nos. 7805 and 7808 respectively.  4107 and 4110 were their second L&SWR numbers.  In the restoration programme '7805' was visible inside at least one of the doors.

 

Chris KT

[jamespetts]

It is not on the web, but I have a picture in a book called, "The History of British Railway Carriages 1900 - 1953" by David Jenkinson (at p. 513) of a Southern Railway royal train heading to Portsmouth behind T9 class no. 716. The train consists of a birdcage brake at the front, then a clerestory carriage that I imagine is the royal saloon, two other carriages of similar profile save for the clerestory, another birdcage brake and some sort of van at the back, possibly a PLV. All the carriages have white roofs. There are no Pullman carriages in the train. The caption states that the photograph was taken in 1938.

 

The accompanying text suggests that this may have been based on the SECR royal train, including Wainwright's clerestory saloon, which would explain the birdcage brake carriages at each end. The SECR royal train was apparently the royal train used by the Southern Railway until 1939. After 1939, the text at p. 514 records, Pullmans were used on Southern royal trains (and were sometimes used before then. However, the LMS royal train was also often used on the Southern Railway, the Pullmans or the ex-SECR royal train, especially in the later 1930s, being used only where the LMS royal train could not clear the more restricted loading gauge of the relevant line.

[Nearholmer]

Interesting.

 

The description of the train fits exactly what is shown on the semgonline section about the ex-secr coaches, but the use of the LMS train is new to me.

[Northroader]

The SECR wainwright saloon of 1903 ran with three conversions of older first class coaches, and was a bogie coach 50’ long with two lavatories, three saloon compartments, and a coupe. It was intended for day use only. Other later saloons were added, but it only saw use for journeys in the SR area, such as to link with Continental trips, Cowes, or race meetings. If night accommodation was needed, the LMS train would then be needed. What little bit I saw of such workings you could get royals sleeping overnight in a secluded siding, to emerge bright eyed and bushy tailed at some venue first thing next morning, and this practice still occurs.

One peculiarity was that this saloon was numbered 1R, and the SR numbered it 7930. However, it was called the English Royal, as another 1R existed, a 54’ 12 wheeler, which had lavatories, saloon, bedrooms, and compartments, built by the MSLR in 1883. This was stabled at Calais, for Edwards little trips abroad (say no more, nudge nudge, wink wink) and this was the Continental Royal. The SR numbered it 7931, but it wasn’t repainted, and was sold in France in 1927.

[Kelly]

The David Gould books on bogie carriages gives details of a number of the pre-grouping royal carriages and in a number of cases what became of them.

Edited July 1, 2018 by Kelly

[phil-b259]

I believe that the Southern Railway decided early on in its existence that given the relatively short length of its main lines (and thus the length of time any Royals would be on the train) it simply didn't make economic sense to build a new 'Royal Train' / Royal carriages to replace whatever they had inherited from the constituent companies in 1923 when Pullman cars would do the job just as well.

 

When Royal trips took place that did need overnight accommodation (very much a rare occurrence) the SR simply borrowed the GWR / LNER / LMS Royal train.

 

The ex pre-grouping Royal stock was thus turned over for internal use by SR management.

[Nearholmer]

That’s exactly what I thought, Phil, but this thread has proved the last sentence wrong.

[Andy Kirkham]

As a matter of interest, which  of the pre-group companies did have their own dedicated royal coaches?

 

One would have thought that it might have been rational for the companies to get together and maintain one common royal train. Why did they not do so? Did they all want to be seen to be excelling in their loyalty and patriotism, or were there practical or financial benefits?

 

Was maintaining and running royal trains expected to be a profitable  business covering all its costs, or was it done at a loss for reasons of prestige and/or patriotism?

[Ian Morgan]

I was always lead to believe that the royal entourage only paid the normal first class fares for travel, so it was unlikely to be a profitable business on that basis alone. It was probably more for the marketing/publicity benefits.

[Wickham Green]

I was always lead to believe that the royal entourage only paid the normal first class fares for travel, so it was unlikely to be a profitable business on that basis alone. It was probably more for the marketing/publicity benefits.

There would, of course be a certain amount of spin-off if the Monarch ( or whoever ) was seen to have chosen one Company rather than another - but there were only a limited number of routes where such a valid choice could be made : London to 'Scotland', maybe to parts of Wales or ( in context ) to the West Country. Against which is the fact that the vast majority of royal rolling stock was not exactly over used so didn't become life-expired and was soon, shall we say, not exactly the latest model ! In fact the only 'new' royal coaches built in the grouping period were the 'armoured' trio built during the war by the LMS* - so maybe the Southern's choice of a 'timeless' design ( Pullman Car ) might have been wise.

 

*Regrettably my only sighting of the Generator Brake was in Vic Berry's yard - the other two survive in the National Collection ........ unless they've been de-acquisitioned ...........

[Compound2632]

I was always lead to believe that the royal entourage only paid the normal first class fares for travel, so it was unlikely to be a profitable business on that basis alone. It was probably more for the marketing/publicity benefits.

 

The rate for hire of a saloon, family, or invalid carriage was a minimum of four first class fares (at least on the Midland in 1903) which seems very cheap if one thinks of it in terms of dead weight per passenger. If that was profitable, one might think that conveying an entire royal party might be lucrative. On the other hand, the planning and disruption involved in say, the annual journey from Windsor to Balmoral and back must have generated considerable expense - but perhaps worth the publicity value to the LNWR and its partners.

 

As a matter of interest, which  of the pre-group companies did have their own dedicated royal coaches?

 

One would have thought that it might have been rational for the companies to get together and maintain one common royal train. Why did they not do so? Did they all want to be seen to be excelling in their loyalty and patriotism, or were there practical or financial benefits?

 

Was maintaining and running royal trains expected to be a profitable  business covering all its costs, or was it done at a loss for reasons of prestige and/or patriotism?

 

The Midland had no royal saloon until 1912; there is a posed photo of its royal train then or soon after, with the royal engine - a 483 class superheater 4-4-0 with the royal monogram in lieu of the company arms on the cabside. Apart from the royal saloon, the rest of the train is made up of standard 54ft clerestory carriages and one of the oldest of the 60ft 12-wheel diners, dating from 1892, presumably no longer on a regular circuit.

 

I believe most royal traffic over the Midland was to and from Rowsley for Chatsworth.

[Nearholmer]

It would be fascinating to understand the financial arrangements around the LBSCR royal train, because it was heavily used, especially by PoW/Edward VII and his family and friends, almost as we might use a family car today.

[Ian Morgan]

Back in pre-grouping days, the well off not only paid for saloons or familay carriages, but would charter their own trains. At one point, the Great Western wrote to the authorities at Eton College asking them to persuade their pupils to share trains back from London at weekends because they were running short of locomotives.

[Oldddudders]

It would be fascinating to understand the financial arrangements around the LBSCR royal train, because it was heavily used, especially by PoW/Edward VII and his family and friends, almost as we might use a family car today.

 

And the LBSCR had invested heavily to encourage that. Singleton was lavishly provided with facilities that only royal visitors to West Dean could have needed.