Johnfromoz Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 There are enough suppliers out there who will be below the 75k threshold. As for not being bothered about paying more, good luck to you. On a big ticket item such as O Gauge loco that can amount to $150. That is why I will seek out new sources. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted June 19, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 19, 2018 There are enough suppliers out there who will be below the 75k threshold. As for not being bothered about paying more, good luck to you. On a big ticket item such as O Gauge loco that can amount to $150. That is why I will seek out new sources. Good luck to you too John (without irony!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted June 19, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 19, 2018 Totally disagree. In this modern world, everything can be had for a price. At the end of the day, with global on line trading just about everything is 'available'. My priority is to pursue my (generally expensive) hobby at the best price possible. Not true. Amazon for example, has decided to NOT make the vast majority of their products available to Australia. They have an Australian web site, which sells only a small percentage of the range, but using an entirely (more expensive) price structure. They will decline to ship to Australia from their US site. I'm sure there will be ways around it, using 3rd party shippers for example, but that hardly meets your comments. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpgibbons Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 A good opportunity for smaller online retailers to step up here. A 10 percent price edge over the big boys would certainly tempt me although Hatton's low mail costs will offset that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antony Farrell Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 What may happen in Australia is that Customs will make use of the declarations, where the overseas companies have not indicated that GST has been collected will result in the goods being held by customs and the customer being billed for this plus costs. This used to happen to things like wargames figures. I remember importing a small quantity in the late 70's and customs not handing them over until some duty or other was paid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeysarefun Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) What may happen in Australia is that Customs will make use of the declarations, where the overseas companies have not indicated that GST has been collected will result in the goods being held by customs and the customer being billed for this plus costs. This used to happen to things like wargames figures. I remember importing a small quantity in the late 70's and customs not handing them over until some duty or other was paid. Currently goods over $1000 in value are treated like this. The Mrs Imported some fancy footwear from the US which just went over the $1000 limit and navigating the resulting paperwork is ridiculous - different rules and forms for different materials - leather and so on. Ended up paying 50 bucks or something for a customs agent to do it all for us. Would be a nightmare if they just apply these same rules and regulations to the process for goods worth a minimal amount. Edited June 19, 2018 by monkeysarefun Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 On a big ticket item such as O Gauge loco that can amount to $150. That is why I will seek out new sources. But if the added $150 represents 10% GST, then the old price must have been $1500. That's well above the existing $1000 threshold so Aussie GST has always been payable. Surely you are not saying (publically) that you have been avoiding your tax liabilities? If that is typical of your UK purchases, then you have nothing to worry about. Your costs will remain the same. For the rest of us, I agree with other comments. These changes have relatively little impact. The main reasons for buying model railway equipment from overseas add up to much more than just 10% (15% in NZ) GST. It's about cost savings of 30 to 50% and simple availability. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnfromoz Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 Lets not get down to the semantics of what I or any other modeller chooses to buy. I was merely illustrating that for sizeable orders, 10% can mount up, that’s all!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnfromoz Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 A good opportunity for smaller online retailers to step up here. A 10 percent price edge over the big boys would certainly tempt me although Hatton's low mail costs will offset that.. Agreed, there are some smaller suppliers out there with surprisingly reasonable postage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Torper Posted June 19, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 19, 2018 Having read the above, and in particular the illustration provided by Hattons, am I correct in thinking that even with this 10% GST charge, the Australian buyer is still going to be paying less than his UK counterpart who is having to pay VAT? DT Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnfromoz Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 Generally, that has been the case, although the advantage can be somewhat nullified by postal costs, which can vary from reasonable to extortionate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Torper Posted June 19, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) Yes - as I see it, someone in Australia who buys a P class loco from Hattons even after the imposition of GST will pay a total of £93.35 including postage, whileas his UK counterpart, burdened with 20% VAT, will pay £101 for the same thing, again including postage. Doesn't seem too bad a deal from this side of the world! DT Edited June 19, 2018 by Torper Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 As to enforceability, possible use of existing tax treaties has been mentioned, but even if the government DO enforce this tax collection, the buyer can avoid by using a smaller operator for purchases. As far as I can make out, the existing tax treaties with the UK/EU don't allow for this and are more concerned with eliminating double-taxing etc. Hatton's notice seems somewhat vague into HOW the 10% GST makes it from Hatton's to the Australian government. In a nutshell, I think they are quite rightly covering their butts because if there is any legal method of recovery, Hatton's will be a target. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougN Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Ok I have said thing previously which are all still valid. I have previously discussed with a local trader who mentioned that on importing a number of thousands of dollars of model railway items some of which were NOT taxed which of course being a business had to charge and collect the marked up tax on sale. The point this makes is there is a reasonable number of times taxes are not applied coming into the country. So if the retailer/importer only gets hit occasionally... maybe the ATO/ Postoffice need to fix this problem rather than pushing it off to overseas retailers who have really no responsibility to charge/collect another countries tax. The idea of getting over seas suppliers to charge GST is insane as it places them at a competitive disadvantage to others in that market. Let alone the cost of compliance which we here in the country accept but is unacceptable for another country. Personally I would have more agreed with a reduction of the applied limit to say $500 or even $300 rather than the $1000 as this is more reasonable. This applying the local requirements to overseas companies is unreasonable on those suppliers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted June 19, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 19, 2018 As far as I can make out, the existing tax treaties with the UK/EU don't allow for this and are more concerned with eliminating double-taxing etc. Hatton's notice seems somewhat vague into HOW the 10% GST makes it from Hatton's to the Australian government. In a nutshell, I think they are quite rightly covering their butts because if there is any legal method of recovery, Hatton's will be a target. Why does Hattons website have to specify, exactly how the GST makes it to Australia? Fact is Hattons, as a presumably a law abiding organisation, are compelled to collect the tax on behalf of the Australian Tax Office. The alternative legal option, is to NOT supply to Australia - the last thing anyone wants, least of all Hattons, I suspect. I wonder if Hattons, already deal with other countries, with a similar demand as the ATO? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnfromoz Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 It is what it is. Does anyone know of any other large UK traders following Hattons practice? Would have thought the Sheffield emporium won't be far behind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Andy Hayter Posted June 19, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 19, 2018 As someone living outside the UK but in the EU, when I buy from the UK I pay VAT plus the increased delivery costs. If I buy from Australia I will usually be charged VAT on arrival (except for very low value deliveries). This is collected by La Poste (Post Office) who add a substantial fee for the privilege. As Benjamin Franklin said, the only two certain things are death and taxes. Be thankful we are discussing the latter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 ... Hattons, as a presumably a law abiding organisation, are compelled to collect the tax on behalf of the Australian Tax Office... That's a service, and a fee should be chargeable to ATO for provision of the service. And there will be VAT on that. I shall write to my MP concerning a suggested fee and VAT charge structure; of say about 10% of the sale and shipping charge that generated the ATO demand. Cannot see a problem with that.. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jukebox Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 My biggest fear with this remains that some smaller retailers will refuse to ship to Australia, for fear of being chased for not collecting the 10% GST - or because it's not economically viable to do so. Remember this is not just UK collection - our government is asking retailers the world over to become thier tax de facto agents. Anything that further reduces the already small number of suppliers we can source the myriad special supplies we need to build model railways is not a good thing. Cheers Scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Mac Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 My biggest fear with this remains that some smaller retailers will refuse to ship to Australia, for fear of being chased for not collecting the 10% GST - or because it's not economically viable to do so. Remember this is not just UK collection - our government is asking retailers the world over to become thier tax de facto agents. Anything that further reduces the already small number of suppliers we can source the myriad special supplies we need to build model railways is not a good thing. Cheers Scott Totally agree Scott..... I’ve no problem paying the 10% gst, it’s the restrictive supply situation that gets me.... For those still back in the old country, being ‘rorted’ (ripped off) is the national game here...if you visited here, then you might choke on some of the prices that are charged here... I read on another forum a while back, the reason for the high model prices from Australian model stores was to do with a single importer who held the monopoly on the model market and made an extremely healthy profit from said business...don’t know how valid that point still is... The amazon situation is worrying... for example, last week I ordered a power pack from the Uk amazon site...it cost $36 (ex postage)...the same power pack from the Australian Amazon site is $92.... that’s how it is here.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Why does Hattons website have to specify, exactly how the GST makes it to Australia? Fact is Hattons, as a presumably a law abiding organisation, are compelled to collect the tax on behalf of the Australian Tax Office. The alternative legal option, is to NOT supply to Australia - the last thing anyone wants, least of all Hattons, I suspect. As I said, the existing tax treaties don't seem to support the ATO's ability to force anyone to collect sales taxes for them. If they were collecting for the ATO they would need to put a clear statement to that effect - they haven't. https://www.alliottgroup.net/practice-management-resources-for-owner-managed-firms/gst-australia-foreign-imports-july-2018/?utm_source=Mondaq&utm_medium=syndication&utm_campaign=inter-article-link (which I finally managed to find - there is NOTHING on the HMRC site about this hence why I am saying there is no tax collection onus on UK companies on the ATO's behalf...) outlines the only way this could work in any case, in that the ATO charges this GST at point of entry to Australia, so basically the tax is not being collected by the likes of Hattons, but is a charge imposed by whichever carrier they are using to deliver to Australia. The carrier is the tax collector, and they being based in Australia are under the ATO's domain anyway, and it looks very much like that there is no threshold for foreign traders selling to Australia. So in theory all traders selling to Australia should make provision for this. How they police which packages are traders' and which are presents from relatives I do not know... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted June 19, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 19, 2018 (edited) As I said, the existing tax treaties don't seem to support the ATO's ability to force anyone to collect sales taxes for them. If they were collecting for the ATO they would need to put a clear statement to that effect - they haven't. https://www.alliottgroup.net/practice-management-resources-for-owner-managed-firms/gst-australia-foreign-imports-july-2018/?utm_source=Mondaq&utm_medium=syndication&utm_campaign=inter-article-link (which I finally managed to find - there is NOTHING on the HMRC site about this hence why I am saying there is no tax collection onus on UK companies on the ATO's behalf...) outlines the only way this could work in any case, in that the ATO charges this GST at point of entry to Australia, so basically the tax is not being collected by the likes of Hattons, but is a charge imposed by whichever carrier they are using to deliver to Australia. The carrier is the tax collector, and they being based in Australia are under the ATO's domain anyway, and it looks very much like that there is no threshold for foreign traders selling to Australia. So in theory all traders selling to Australia should make provision for this. How they police which packages are traders' and which are presents from relatives I do not know... Yes, same as Parcelforce et al do with incoming packages in this country. The practical effect of Hatton's incorporating the levy as part of the despatch process (then presumably forwarding the moolah to the ATO via their chosen Aussie courier company) is likely to be that you'll get your parcel delivered to your home rather than having to go and ransom it from the courier's depot. John Edited June 20, 2018 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted June 19, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 19, 2018 They don't back-bill HMRC for collecting VAT, and the customer ends up paying...… I imagine their Aussie counterparts will be trying to make compliance for the likes of Hatton's (and their customers) as seamless as possible. The idea is presumably to generate revenue, not put a stop to the trade. Those in Australia purchasing their model railway goods from the UK have long been in the enviable position of not paying tax in either country. Welcome to the real world? John Yes I agree and rereading the actual text on the Hattons site, doesn't sound as they are too bothered either. They see it as a software solution. I read that the retailers collect the GST and pay it in blocks according to the size of the amount. If say quarterly, they get to sit on whatever the cash amount is, for up to 90 days. Perhaps not that bad a deal? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianusa Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Don't cheer yet. I heard there's some serious studying going on so that Hornby's next GWR steam engine can be a national security threat. Of course since they are manufactured in China..... .......................better keep it quiet or else toy trains will be subject to tariffs! Brian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeysarefun Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Then on top of this theres the proposed $5 per parcel security screening tax https://www.dailyliberal.com.au/story/5299325/a-parcel-tax-could-be-on-its-way-australia/ (brought to you by the party that has lower taxes as "part of its DNA..." ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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