DougN Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 Sorry it seems that the point that the gross amount that any trader sells into Australia has to be in excess of $75,000AUD. How is the ATO going to figure that out with Freight ETC forwarding through the main capitals... otherwise that is a serious computer programer and scaner... Tallying up the incomming packages... OK so Wizard models sends me a package for 100AUD... it is small and dense... Monk Bar models sends me a medium package for say $200AUD... does the same to all the other modellers and I guess there is about 3000 in Australia How do you tally a gross. Look I have no idea if the retailers actually hit these figures as that is a lot of trains! Hattons may need to see if they actually hit 75KAUD (42000Pound) to actually do this! If Hattons and others have received a letter from the ATO there are already systems in place. The other thing is what as a percentage of turn over of the larger retailers actually exporting to Australia? I still doubt the ATO has any power to force a overseas company to provide the information or recover the tax in another country as they are suggesting. The retailers do not have a address here in Australia, where as Google, Amazon etc do! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougN Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 Then on top of this theres the proposed $5 per parcel security screening tax https://www.dailyliberal.com.au/story/5299325/a-parcel-tax-could-be-on-its-way-australia/ (brought to you by the party that has lower taxes as "part of its DNA..." ) Yeap how the hell do they justify $193.5Million let me guess it is more than cost recovery! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted June 20, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 20, 2018 Ok I have said thing previously which are all still valid. I have previously discussed with a local trader who mentioned that on importing a number of thousands of dollars of model railway items some of which were NOT taxed which of course being a business had to charge and collect the marked up tax on sale. The point this makes is there is a reasonable number of times taxes are not applied coming into the country. So if the retailer/importer only gets hit occasionally... maybe the ATO/ Postoffice need to fix this problem rather than pushing it off to overseas retailers who have really no responsibility to charge/collect another countries tax. The idea of getting over seas suppliers to charge GST is insane as it places them at a competitive disadvantage to others in that market. Let alone the cost of compliance which we here in the country accept but is unacceptable for another country. Personally I would have more agreed with a reduction of the applied limit to say $500 or even $300 rather than the $1000 as this is more reasonable. This applying the local requirements to overseas companies is unreasonable on those suppliers. The GST is a dogs breakfast and that is all to do with the way Peter Costello set it up. Never understood why there was such a high threshold of $1000, in the first place. I can't stand Gerry Harvey, but on this topic, he's correct. He once said that he wouldn't buy anything on credit, under his T&C. Another thing he got right! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted June 20, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 20, 2018 Sorry it seems that the point that the gross amount that any trader sells into Australia has to be in excess of $75,000AUD. How is the ATO going to figure that out with Freight ETC forwarding through the main capitals... otherwise that is a serious computer programer and scaner... Tallying up the incomming packages... OK so Wizard models sends me a package for 100AUD... it is small and dense... Monk Bar models sends me a medium package for say $200AUD... does the same to all the other modellers and I guess there is about 3000 in Australia How do you tally a gross. Look I have no idea if the retailers actually hit these figures as that is a lot of trains! Hattons may need to see if they actually hit 75KAUD (42000Pound) to actually do this! If Hattons and others have received a letter from the ATO there are already systems in place. The other thing is what as a percentage of turn over of the larger retailers actually exporting to Australia? I still doubt the ATO has any power to force a overseas company to provide the information or recover the tax in another country as they are suggesting. The retailers do not have a address here in Australia, where as Google, Amazon etc do! From wherever you read, loads of people buy from Hattons, so would not surprise me in the least, if they easily beat the $75k a year. Doubtless, they have done their homework and can't NOT supply to Australia. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Mac Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 Sorry it seems that the point that the gross amount that any trader sells into Australia has to be in excess of $75,000AUD. How is the ATO going to figure that out with Freight ETC forwarding through the main capitals... otherwise that is a serious computer programer and scaner... Tallying up the incomming packages... OK so Wizard models sends me a package for 100AUD... it is small and dense... Monk Bar models sends me a medium package for say $200AUD... does the same to all the other modellers and I guess there is about 3000 in Australia How do you tally a gross. Look I have no idea if the retailers actually hit these figures as that is a lot of trains! Hattons may need to see if they actually hit 75KAUD (42000Pound) to actually do this! If Hattons and others have received a letter from the ATO there are already systems in place. The other thing is what as a percentage of turn over of the larger retailers actually exporting to Australia? I still doubt the ATO has any power to force a overseas company to provide the information or recover the tax in another country as they are suggesting. The retailers do not have a address here in Australia, where as Google, Amazon etc do! Hmmmm....... I think Hattons will sell many times the $75k threshold figure.... i look at my spending habits and get a fright at what I spend and would contribute to the 75K figure, never mind the thousands of others who use Hattons and other online model shops.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted June 20, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 20, 2018 (edited) Hmmmm....... I think Hattons will sell many times the $75k threshold figure.... i look at my spending habits and get a fright at what I spend and would contribute to the 75K figure, never mind the thousands of others who use Hattons and other online model shops.... The British Railway Modellers of Australia association has, in round figures, about 500 members in Australia. There are probably at least another 500 modellers of the British scene who are not BRMA members (plug: why not?). To hit the $75,000 threshold would require an average spend for those people of $75 per year, so it is perfectly feasible that Hattons will reach this level of sales. Edited June 20, 2018 by St Enodoc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnfromoz Posted June 20, 2018 Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 Hattons won’t be the only ones either I’d wager. I’m hoping the next two biggest sellers over there escape this rule but think at least one will come close. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpgibbons Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 The idea of charging GST and handling fees on arrival was considered but rejected in favour of the current scheme. Thankfully so as this would have meant extra fees and delay. As things stand the vast majority of UK hobby retailers will not be affected thanks to the 75k threshold. Hatton's and Rails will be caught but who else is big enough? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougN Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 Probably Rails of Sheffield, Kernow Models, AJModels (as they specifically sell to Australia) . after that though I don't think we will see that many hit the limit. The smaller guys I am starting to deal with bearly get to the register for VAT level!. We may see more website based companies moving into the space though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnfromoz Posted June 20, 2018 Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 No doubt there will be a sales bonanza for H and others between now and 30 June. I am bringing forward several planned purchases, as the difference taken over the rest of the year, such is my spending on this hobby, is indeed significant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpgibbons Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 Kernows have confirmed on Facebook that they are well below the threshold. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnfromoz Posted June 20, 2018 Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 Good to hear. They are one of my preferred suppliers and regularly have competitively priced items in their bargain section. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted June 20, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 20, 2018 Reading further into this it seems that the requirement shall be that a non-Australian business wishing to export to that country and exceeding the tax threshold will be required to register with the Australian authorities and hold an Australian Business Number (ABN). That works in much the same way as a VAT registration in the UK. But I question whether Australia actually has the power to do this since it effectively requires businesses to complete regular activity statements and submit tax payments to the ATO. Those few busineses within our hobby which this directly affects stand only to lose from this as costs are passed on to the consumer and those same consumers vote with their feet (or plastic card) and shop elsewhere. I come back to my original point that this is allegedly being done to protect Australian jobs and (without saying so) to boost tax revenue. But it seems to already be backfiring without having started. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougN Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 Rick, your absolutely spot on. So we could be down to 2 retailers that might be caught by the issue. Keeping under the limit would be the trick for any of the companies and I would love to see how if a package is signed by the poster with various street addresses this could be worked around! My point earlier on .... this leaves rorting a posibility... Oh we have to charge some customers more but if we are under the limit... straight into the pocket! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
neilkirby Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 Hi, I have no horse in this race, but just cannot see how this plan can possibly work, (at least without a Crystal Ball!). According the above Kernow, are below the 75K limit, but just say that by the end of the tax year, due to the extra tax on the likes of Hatton's & RoS, their sales peak at 76K do they then contact all their customers asking for the extra tax. Conversely should Hatton's Australian sales fall below the limit as their customers have been going to non- tax smaller competitors, will they be sending part refunds? Also the tables will be turned the following year, and things could see-saw on into the future. Neil 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnfromoz Posted June 20, 2018 Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 Yes there are many variables in trading which may influence how this plays out, but at the end of the day, its here folks, as a fact, however unpopular. It IS clearly enforceable, Hattons would not be complying otherwise. However, all is not lost, with a choice of remaining suppliers Im sure most Aust modellers can find their needs met. Where Hattons stood out was postage charges, but if you bundle astutely with the some of the others they do not cost much more. Its not as though Hattons prices are that competitive against other UK suppliers these days anyway. And yes, we are all aware that they are still cheaper than local Australian retailers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted June 20, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 20, 2018 (edited) It seems likely that some purchasers will migrate from the (so far) only operator that is above the threshold to others that, on past figures, may not be. How soon before that pushes one or more of them over the line? John Edited June 20, 2018 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted June 20, 2018 Share Posted June 20, 2018 You don't know for sure that Hattons will comply, just that they are looking at. And it is unenforceable. What's Oz going to do in the event of noncompliance? Tell its citizens on no account to purchase from X, Y, Z? An Australian politician's superhuman powers pretty much end at the border with international waters. Retailers it seems to me have three choices. Tough it out with non-compliance. Possibly with 'manouevres' to visibly avoid exceeding threshold. (I am a commercial bandit at heart.) Limit their sales to Oz to the prescribed amount. (Now is that at the exchange rate prevailing at the start of the tax year, or what?) Comply, and risk losing sales to smaller outfits which will never get anywhere near the threshold. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnfromoz Posted June 20, 2018 Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 Check Hattons website if you are in any doubt about it! Clearly says they are starting this in 10 days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted June 20, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 20, 2018 (edited) You don't know for sure that Hattons will comply, just that they are looking at. And it is unenforceable. What's Oz going to do in the event of noncompliance? Tell its citizens on no account to purchase from X, Y, Z? An Australian politician's superhuman powers pretty much end at the border with international waters. Retailers it seems to me have three choices. Tough it out with non-compliance. Possibly with 'manouevres' to visibly avoid exceeding threshold. (I am a commercial bandit at heart.) Limit their sales to Oz to the prescribed amount. (Now is that at the exchange rate prevailing at the start of the tax year, or what?) Comply, and risk losing sales to smaller outfits which will never get anywhere near the threshold. Compliance doesn't need to be "enforceable"; all that is required is to make the outcome of non-compliance sufficiently uncomfortable, inconvenient or (most irritating of all) just plain unpredictable. What seems likely is that packages from registered UK retailers will somehow be made identifiable as "Duty Paid", and get a clear run through the system ensuring rapid delivery. A$75,000 is the point at which registration becomes compulsory within Australia and it almost certainly cannot be so for UK businesses. However, just as UK businesses with turnover under the VAT threshold are able to register for the sake of convenience, I wouldn't mind betting a similar option will be made very convenient by the ATO for those close to reaching it. We also don't know what requirements might be imposed on the delivery chain in Australia. Packages without proof of payment might well attract closer scrutiny, possibly including opening, to identify and value the contents for taxation purposes. You will then be notified that customs have assessed your goods and the amount of any tax and charges required to release them. The customer chooses; stump up the 10% on ordering and get your goods promptly and hassle free; or don't and (if UK practice is anything to go by) wait an extra couple of weeks, possibly have to drive however many miles it is from your home to the courier's depot and pay the tax there, plus a (probably hefty) "service" charge. Once Australian customs get up-to-speed with this, as I suspect they will, many (merchants and purchasers alike) will take the line of least resistance as Hatton's appear to be doing.. John Edited June 20, 2018 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted June 20, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 20, 2018 At the risk of asking a stupid question, why can't they just levy the sales tax or customs charge on parcels like other countries do? I can see the attraction of offering a service whereby a seller or the shipping company can collect taxes in return for expedited delivery (I've had packages sit in the parcel force customs facility for over a month, and they still charged me for the privilege) but I can see trying to impose laws on companies in other countries as being problematic at best. I'm guessing there are various manoeuvres a company could use to get around this if they really wanted to. Although the idea of a countdown counter going to $75k would be amusing. I can see that companies like Amazon with a genuine international presence will like this as they can force Australian customers to use the local website and probably make a higher margin from them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Mac Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Let’s be honest, being in Australia, we have been really fortunate over the last number of years.... we have been able to bring our online model purchases into Australia with the 20% vat removed, and in many cases, even with postage added, we end up generally speaking with a model that still costs less than if we bought it in the UK.... Add in the very favourable exchange rates over the last 8/9 years, we have been getting our models at a bargain price.... While nobody likes paying taxes, if we get charged the 10% gst, it’s not the end of the world.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 Agreeing with you, Andy, I don't think any of us are objecting to paying the extra. As has been mentioned earlier in this topic, in many cases it is not just the price that is dictating the purchases, it is the availability of the particular models (or non-availability in Oz) that drives us to buy overseas. Having done that, we win on price as well, with or without the extra 10%. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
monkeysarefun Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 (edited) I have often bought things on Ebay from US/UK/Euro merchants who will not ship to Australia, so I use a reshipping service to re-deliver them to me here.. Now, under the new rules - Electronic Distribution Platforms (ie Ebay) will be responsible for collecting the GST rather than the individual merchants who sell throught them (assuning those merchants make over $75.000 in sales per annum to Australia) Re-shippers will be responsible for collecting the GST on items that they assist in sending to Australia from a merchant who makes over $75.000 in sales if the custtomer uses one (due to merchant not shipping to Australia). The ATO website states: The entity that charges GST on these sales can be the merchant who sells the goods, an electronic distribution platform operator or a re-deliverer. If more than one of these entities is involved in the sale, you will need to work out who charges GST By 'you' I assume that they mean 'me; as a customer.. I'll "need to work it out'...? So I'm thinking as a result of me not knowing how to "work it out" I'll probably get charged twice for the GST when Ebay and the reshipper both apply it. ( Alternatively I'm thinking that the reshipper webiste might have a tickbox you tick that says " has the GST already been paid on this?" or similar. I assume in that case everyone will just tick it regardless!) Also, if the reshipper charges it the GST applies to the original iem(s), the postage AND the reshipping charges that they add on to make a buck. I know the $75,000 limit probably doesn't apply to the majority of Ebay model sellers, but I'm thinking more of Ebay book, machinery and car parts suppliers that I often use which are quite likely to do a lot of business with Australian customers. Edited June 21, 2018 by monkeysarefun Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpgibbons Posted June 21, 2018 Share Posted June 21, 2018 The government determined some time ago that it was not economic to tax imports under AUD 1000 at the border which is why they have introduced the current scheme, which will be leaky but much cheaper to operate and more convenient for recipient s. The government cannot force overseas suppliers to collect tax but they can threaten them with inspection and duty collection at the border. Few retailers would risk that disruption to deliveries. However the budget allocated for compliance is tiny so I think it likely that only the top few hundred online retailers will get any attention. A few years from now when custom declarations are fully electronic it will be possible to collect imports GST much more effectively. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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