YorkshireLad Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 Hi everyone. In another post I've mentioned my plan to build a layout that will run on 180mm deep shelves all the way round my livingroom. There will also be a small figure of 8 layout on my livingroom window ledge which I've extended to be 500mm deep. Where the shelving layout runs across the window I will be making that into a replica of a local tram bridge to go over the window ledge layout. The idea is to have a layout that will be visible from outside so others can enjoy it too, so I want to make it fully automated so every hour the layout will run for 5-10min automatically. The shelving layout will run round the entire livingroom with the trains going back and forth automatically (not a full circuit layout due to the door). My local MP is helping me get a copy of the plans for the "Sheffield Park Square Tram Bridge" so my replica can be done perfectly to scale. I'm calling this plan 'Going Full Roy Cropper Style", for anyone that doesn't watch soaps Roy Cropper is a character on the soap Corrie who when his wife died he went a little crazy and built a huge layout filling his entire livingroom. Well last year my partner left me while I was in hospital and totally emptied my flat of everything so I came home to an empty flat. Instead of taking her to court etc I'm using this as an opportunity to start from scratch and do what I want and this plan is part of my recovery to hope focus my mind to stop my depression taking control of me. In my other thread I was advised that I will be able to do full automation using the Hornby Railmaster system, but before I buy one I want to check a few things 1st as I like to have everything planned before I do anything. Ive drawn plans of the entire thing and even done technical drawings with all the measurements for everything, when I can get access to a scanner I'll share them as I'm impressed with them myself haha. 1, Do I need a computer to do the automation, or can I do it using just a tablet? I only have a smartphone and tablet. 2, How do the trains know where to stop at stations before switching direction? I've read somewhere that using timers won't work because the speed trains travel at can be different each day depending on temperature etc. 3, would the tablet need to be switched on constantly for it to work? 4, Is there anything else you think I should know? I'm new to DCC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 (edited) You will need a computer to do the processing and appropriate software, but that can only do the work if you have some form of occupancy detection that feeds the software with the information about the state and positions of the stock and tracks. The computer would then issue appropriate commends to change points, signals and stop start trains. This can be very expensive if not done right, and when it is done right it can still be expensive! There are some command stations that can do a level of automation for you, but again cost is a factor here. You are making the right thoughts now as getting it wrong now could prove a nightmare later, planning for the future will definitely help Edited June 18, 2018 by WIMorrison 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireLad Posted June 18, 2018 Author Share Posted June 18, 2018 (edited) You will need a computer to do the processing and appropriate software, but that can only do the work if you have some form of occupancy detection that feeds the software with the information about the state and positions of the stock and tracks. The computer would then issue appropriate commends to change points, signals and stop start trains. This can be very expensive if not done right, and when it is done right it can still be expensive! There are some command stations that can do a level of automation for you, but again cost is a factor here. You are making the right thoughts now as getting it wrong now could prove a nightmare later, planning for the future will definitely help I actually get a lot of enjoyment from just making the plans so I'm taking my time with this. Ive started making the unit for the window ledge and have been working just on that for weeks to make sure its perfect. As Ive had to extend the window ledge from 280mm to 500mm the unit will also have shelves under it to display my slotcar collection so it has multiple uses. This using is also on caster wheels so I'll be able to get behind it as all the electronics will be hidden behind this too. Really wish I had a scanner now so I could share my plans hahaha. I know its going to be expensive but that is fine as it means I can just do a bit on it at a time and learn as I go. I didn't want a plan that would be done in a couple of month Edited June 18, 2018 by YorkshireLad Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ianLMS Posted June 18, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 18, 2018 Sounds like you are making the best out of a bad situation and channelling your inner "Roy Cropper"!! Well done that man!! Sorry I cant help much with automation but this could possibly be a job for some intelligent circuit board/programming trickery from some of the DCC guru's. I know Heathcote Electronics can supply shuttle gizmo's and automotic train operation for Analogue, but probably not DCC. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireLad Posted June 18, 2018 Author Share Posted June 18, 2018 Sounds like you are making the best out of a bad situation and channelling your inner "Roy Cropper"!! Well done that man!! Ian Well she left me with a completely empty flat so I figured this was the perfect time to do something that will keep my mind occupied and she's left me with a completely black canvas. Just means I have to spread my funds between refurnishing my flat and this project, so this gives me extra time to plan everything so I do everything right the 1st time Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ianLMS Posted June 18, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 18, 2018 Sounds like a good plan and you are going about it the right way. There must be good software out there that can do what you need it to. I am just not aware of any. Look forward to seeing the plans. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 (edited) I built a layout several years ago with the intent of automating it - the cost put me off, together with the limited availability of components. I learned a lot of lessons from that and the mistake I have made this time was not buying the correct control software, luckily I mad the correct decisions on the DCC controller and peripherals - I was to save money and I think it is going to cost me a couple of hundred They are now much more accessible, although options that support full use of a phone or tablet are very limited, but both systems that support this a very full featured with one cheaper than the other for the command station but both using the same software (look for Z21 on your App Store). The key aspect to worry about is around the modules you will use for automation as there are several communication busses and they are all in densely of each other - my recommendation would be to stick with either Xpressnet or LocoNet and I suggest that latter is better for you as there is a greater range of components available. There is lots of advice available here, what you need to do is create a clear set of requirements to get the rights advice. Aspects to consider are Throttle - just phone and tablet? Expansion requirements Power requirements Future proofing Ease of use Complexity of layout Computer skills Preference for off the shelf or custom build components Personal skill level And last, but by no means least - how much money is available as this can be a very expensive money pot Iain Edited June 18, 2018 by WIMorrison Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian Morgan Posted June 18, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 18, 2018 You might want to look at free software, such as RocRail and JMRI. Both will operate with a large variety of DCC Command Stations, and both can run on a Raspberry Pi, which could be built into your layout. Your tablet could then connect to the Raspberry Pi to set up and control the layout, and/or automate it. If you are not frightened by a soldering iron, check out Merg for lots of advice, and cheap DIY kits for various modules you might require. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireLad Posted June 18, 2018 Author Share Posted June 18, 2018 You might want to look at free software, such as RocRail and JMRI. Both will operate with a large variety of DCC Command Stations, and both can run on a Raspberry Pi, which could be built into your layout. Your tablet could then connect to the Raspberry Pi to set up and control the layout, and/or automate it. If you are not frightened by a soldering iron, check out Merg for lots of advice, and cheap DIY kits for various modules you might require. I was thinking of a Raspberry Pi system but I've never used one, I'm not scared of learning new things though. Also soldering doesn't scare me either, I'm not great but I can do it haha. If you want to see some of my other crazy projects search Youtube for "Pimp My Wheelchair Project", I can't copy and paste the link because at the moment I'm browsing the forum using my smart TV which doesn't allow copy&paste. But I think you will like it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIK Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 Hi, I think some of your questions have been answered before on this forum although I find it difficult to read between the lines of previous topics. The last time I looked Hornby Railmaster couldn't do full automation as I would understand it as it didn't support any position sensors. I know Train Controller, RocRail and JMRI support position sensors. Computer to do automation: I understand some top-end DCC command stations offer some automation such as a shuttle. Otherwise a computer or tablet compatible with the automation software selected will probably be needed. How to get the trains to stop (either to change direction or to stop at platforms): this is normally done by position sensors. Yes the tablet will need to be switched on for it to perform automation. Whether it needs to be on when automatic running is not selected may depend on how the tablet is informed what trains are where and what their DCC addresses are. The key thing I think is to make sure the DCC command station suits the automation software and the software suits the automation needs. You mention planning the layout. I would suggest when you have got the DCC gear and the automation software you try if you can some tests on a few yards of track. Its possible that not all locos will stop in the same distance after triggering a position sensor so platforms may have to be extended or points and signals moved further away from position sensors. Regards Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pacific231G Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 (edited) Pendon, which is DC not DCC uses a magnet under the first and last vehicle of each train that closes a reed switch. That enables things like ensuring that signals don't return to danger until the last vehicle has passed. Their trains aren't shunted though (except on the Madder Valley but that's a very different ketttle of fish) and AFAIK each train has a road in the storage yard that it sets out from and returns to. On the Dartmoor scene the sequence is or can be controlled by the operator but the Vale Scene is totally automatic with the arrival of a train back into its siding triggering the next one to depart. Edited June 18, 2018 by Pacific231G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil S Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 Other considerations are as to 'how much' automation you actually need - not perhaps for the entire layout ? For a window and trams - quite a simple shuttle operation would probably suffice - using either optical or current detection OR simply dioded-ends of run and a 555-timer based shuttle module. - for analogue trams that is very easy, but for dcc-trams you need to know precisely which tram is which, and so either Railcom or other (eg RFid or barcode readers are an option (The Hornby Train Detector announced a few years back has not yet made itself available ...maybe with the new management it will resurface) All these dcc options would require a form of computer control - such as the raspberry Pi or a SPROG which can be simply controlled by a home-brew computer program. For the main layout - it depends on how complex the trackwork and routing is and whether you simply want station stops or a sequence of trains to run round - you could even (heretical statement follows!) revert to analogue DC for this simple 'display mode' - perhaps using heathcote type modules - and then go back to dcc for real flexible control with more than 1 train in use at a time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andymsa Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 It has been mentioned that not all trains stop in same place, it is possible but involves a lot of works getting the loco calabration right for the computer software. A more easier method is to split the stooping area into two. The first zone is the braking area and the second which is the stop section. The brake section can be any reasonable length and the stop section is about 6 inches long. This method is for current detection but can be done with IR also. But of course cost is increased as you need more detection sections. There is no real cheep way to do this. Also as to the computer program Traincontroller lets you download it to evaluate it. It comes in three versions bronze, silver, gold. It rain is another I looked at but personally I'm not as keen on it but it's still a fair program. Jmri is not as easy to grasp but can do some of the things you are looking for. But as its been pointed out automation is not a cheap option but is well worth it Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireLad Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 But as its been pointed out automation is not a cheap option but is well worth it Andy Guess its a good job I'm woman free now then as I have more money to play with now hahaha, bet my trains will be more reliable too! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIMorrison Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Best hope she isn’t reading this thread then as she will put a claim on that money Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireLad Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 Best hope she isn’t reading this thread then as she will put a claim on that money I find it funny because she even emptied out the "Crap Drawer" in the kitchen and even took the door mat too haha. I was born with severe arthritis and last year I was struggling with depression caused by the arthritis and my medication and had a breakdown. After talking to my mum I agreed to go to a clinic to get my mental health sorted, so I was away for 5month. This was the moment she chose to leave. The thing is my health is now the best its ever been, im average weight which I've never been (I've never been over 7stone, I'm now 10.9), my arthritis is under control and my mental state is the best its ever been. What I love about model railways is that there is always something new to learn and its pushing me to try new things, such as I'm building my own furniture that will not only display my slotcar collection but also doubles up as a baseboard for the railway. My hands are deformed due to the arthritis but that hasn't stopped me buying a circular saw to do all the wood cutting myself. Im doing so well that my rheumatology Dr has also asked to use pictures of my hands and the work I've done in her lectures to show her students at uni how its still possible to do things with a disability Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAF96 Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 You dont need a scanner, just take a piccy of the plans with a phone or tablet and post here. I often do this with hand drawn scrawls. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireLad Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 You dont need a scanner, just take a piccy of the plans with a phone or tablet and post here. I often do this with hand drawn scrawls. Rob I dont have either of those. She took those too so at the moment I'm using a mobile that cost me 75p brand new from EE that only does calls & texts. I've been waiting toll I got my debts under control which I now have, so tomorrow I'll be getting a new phone Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andymsa Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 I dont have either of those. She took those too so at the moment I'm using a mobile that cost me 75p brand new from EE that only does calls & texts. I've been waiting toll I got my debts under control which I now have, so tomorrow I'll be getting a new phone She sounds quite an evil lady to do such a thing when your down out of action in hospital Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Kettlewell Posted June 19, 2018 Share Posted June 19, 2018 Ayup Yorkshire Lad, I'd be very happy to host a visit down my big shed where I can show you around my fully automated layout. There's a link to my layout build thread on here in my signature block below. I live in North Yorkshire and can be free anytime if you fancy a ride up. Btw going on holiday next Monday so either before or after is fine with me. PS - if you do come for a look - you'll want it! As another chap on here said after a visit ' the most expensive free lunch' he's ever had ...lol. Cheers... Alan 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireLad Posted June 19, 2018 Author Share Posted June 19, 2018 Ayup Yorkshire Lad, I'd be very happy to host a visit down my big shed where I can show you around my fully automated layout. There's a link to my layout build thread on here in my signature block below. I live in North Yorkshire and can be free anytime if you fancy a ride up. Btw going on holiday next Monday so either before or after is fine with me. PS - if you do come for a look - you'll want it! As another chap on here said after a visit ' the most expensive free lunch' he's ever had ...lol. Cheers... Alan Now that sounds like a very kind offer thanks and I think I'll take you up on that haha. I'll just wait till I get my new phone because then I'll know if I have enough cash left to put diesel in my car lol 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireLad Posted June 20, 2018 Author Share Posted June 20, 2018 Just started a blog with pictures of my plans Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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