Help required for a newcomer to building Loco Kits

[BWsTrains]

Hi,

 

I'm interested in getting some guidance on building a first loco chassis from a kit.

Picking up from favourable comments here I focused on starting with a High-Level chassis kit. Before going ahead I'd appreciate some input.

Unfortunately because of my location and other commitments, access to help via a club environment is not an option for me.

 

I'd rate my motor skills as high for my advancing years, fiddly bits and jobs like fine soldering pose relatively few challenges for me.  

1. Is this a folly if I don't have access to any metal working tools other than hand drills and a fine selection of files?
2. Assuming "No", What are the biggest traps / pitfalls for the beginner?
3. Would I be better off starting with one of the High-Level full loco kits? I don't need one and it's an expensive way to learn unless it's a very good idea as a first step
4. If I do buy a High-Level chassis, what other bits do I need and what would best suit my needs?

 

All constructive help will be appreciated

 

Colin

Edited June 19, 2018 by BWsTrains

[DCB]

The high level chassis sounds like a good bet.

The key to a good chassis is precision in making sure it is square in all directions, vertically and horizontally, the axles are at 90 degrees to the side frames and the coupling rods exactly the same centres as the axles.  Start filing bits off, opening out holes and the like and it will run like a run down K3 if at all.   Meshing the worm always used to be the big challenge but a decent gearbox avoids that issue.  I have never got on with compensated chassis with hornblocks, but other people seem to get on all right.

[AdeMoore]

I echo what David says.

I suspect the coupling rods willl be predrilled for centres? If not that’s the key after squareness of the chassis. Making sure the coupling rods match the axle centres. See my thread in my signature I had lots of advice on that although I was scratch building.

You may want to invest in a jig? But a perfect flat surface to build it on is key. I chose an off cut of shower faced ply as that’s what I had to hand, others use glass I’ve seen. Good luck an enjoy it very rewarding.

Cheers

Ade

[BWsTrains]

I echo what David says.

I suspect the coupling rods willl be predrilled for centres? If not that’s the key after squareness of the chassis. Making sure the coupling rods match the axle centres. See my thread in my signature I had lots of advice on that although I was scratch building.

You may want to invest in a jig? But a perfect flat surface to build it on is key. I chose an off cut of shower faced ply as that’s what I had to hand, others use glass I’ve seen. Good luck an enjoy it very rewarding.

Cheers

Ade

Thanks Ade,

 

the step by step you've posted will help me gauge if I'm up for this or not.

 

Colin

[Clearwater]

There’s a useful downloadable guide to chassis building on http://www.cometmodels.co.uk on the downloads tab

 

David

[Daddyman]

Hi,

 

I'm interested in getting some guidance on building a first loco chassis from a kit.

Picking up from favourable comments here I focused on starting with a High-Level chassis kit. Before going ahead I'd appreciate some input.

Unfortunately because of my location and other commitments, access to help via a club environment is not an option for me.

 

I'd rate my motor skills as high for my advancing years, fiddly bits and jobs like fine soldering pose relatively few challenges for me.  

1. Is this a folly if I don't have access to any metal working tools other than hand drills and a fine selection of files?
2. Assuming "No", What are the biggest traps / pitfalls for the beginner?
3. Would I be better off starting with one of the High-Level full loco kits? I don't need one and it's an expensive way to learn unless it's a very good idea as a first step
4. If I do buy a High-Level chassis, what other bits do I need and what would best suit my needs?

 

All constructive help will be appreciated

 

Colin

A jig would help. The Poppy's one is about £20. 

 

The only mistake I made on my first chassis was folding the gearbox up to about 89 degrees rather than 90. I have since bought a 1" set square from Eileen's Emporium. 

 

The biggest challenge will probably be the brake gear. From my very first kits I've always made this removable, and Morgan Gilbert explains how he does it here - it's not the only way and not quite the way I use, but it will give you an idea.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/29504-petes-p4-workdesk/?p=325869

 

The advantage is it makes painting and wheel removal easier. Otherwise, you can go down the Tony Wright route (are you aware of his thread, "Wright Writes"? - lots of discussion and tips for beginners) and spray everything under power, then clean off where necessary. 

[Guy Rixon]

You need "jig axles" to check that the coupling-rod drillings match those for the axles, and to correct the axle holes if not. You can't do this by eye to sufficient accuracy. The jig axles are steel axles turned down at each end to fit in the coupling-rod holes; London Road Models sell them, among others.

 

If you are building a rigid chassis, you can assemble it without soldering in the axle bearings and then use the jig axles to check that the rod and axle centres match. If not, drift the holes for the axle bearing until they do and then solder in the bearings when the wheels are no longer binding. 

 

The frame-assembly jigs work with jig axles, but separate sets of jig axles are a lot cheaper.

[hayfield]

If building an etches chassis I think there are some basic low cost items required

 

1   A set of Comet Models loco frame assembly jigs are a good start, these are made in 00, EM & P4 gauges

 

2  A set of Hornblock alignment jigs, mine come from London Road models and are useful even fro soldering Top Hat axle bearings

 

3   A cheap packet of small broaches

 

In addition a 1/8th reamer is very usefull

 

These items may push up the price slightly and a chassis building jig may be something for the future

 

I now only but Highlevel gearboxes, as they are so good and work straight out of the box. I do have 2 Highlevel chassis (both built bu someone else) and they are a work of are, BUT for a first attempt either go for their simplest design (speak with Chris) or buy a very basic Comet Models or Southeastern Finecast or a Mainly Trains (from Wizard Models) Tank loco kit without any cylinders just to get your hand in. I have a 57xx chassis which has exquisite internal valve gear detail, may be a step too far for a first attempt

 

I would also go for a chassis first, just to get something going quickly. Now to be quite controversial etched loco bodies do look exceptionally good, but I would either build up a skill base with a simple etched wagon or van kit or build a whitemetal loco body first, again simply to ease yourself into loco building

 

There are some modellers who successfully jump in at the deep end and successfully build a complicated kit as a first build, far more fail when attempting the same, I would chose a small basic tank loco as a first kit.

 

Good luck and enjoy yourself

[Jol Wilkinson]

I would also add that it helps if you choose a model of a prototype that you are interested in for your layout and for which you may have some photos, etc. in books and magazines.

 

Well designed chassis don't need expensive assembly jigs but as Hayfield points out, a set of axle alignment jigs are very useful, as a checking aid if nothing else. Etching is a slightly variable process and good designers will always make critical holes for axles, etc. slightly undersize so they can be opened out accurately. A good quality cutting broach of the correct size is a must in my view.

 

Look for a chassis in which the frame sides and spacers are designed to provide alignment (U or L shaped spacers fitting into half etched grooves and/or tab/slot assembly are a good guide).

 

There are various suppliers of tools but I would suggest contacting Phil Atkinson at Hobby Holidays. As a modeller himself (albeit 7mm) he can offer pragmatic advice. The other thing is a good soldering iron and the correct solder/flux. I would recommend at least a 25W Antex with a 3mm bit, plus 145 degree solder and a liquid flux for starts.

 

High Level chassis kits tend to lean towards state of the art with plenty of detail. I would suggest you contact Chris at High Level to discuss. Whatever you choose, avoid outside valve gear for your first attempt.

[doilum]

Add fibreglass pencil.

In the land of solder, cleanliness IS godliness!

[chaz]

I would also add that it helps if you choose a model of a prototype that you are interested in for your layout and for which you may have some photos, etc. in books and magazines.

 

Well designed chassis don't need expensive assembly jigs but as Hayfield points out, a set of axle alignment jigs are very useful, as a checking aid if nothing else. Etching is a slightly variable process and good designers will always make critical holes for axles, etc. slightly undersize so they can be opened out accurately. A good quality cutting broach of the correct size is a must in my view.

 

Look for a chassis in which the frame sides and spacers are designed to provide alignment (U or L shaped spacers fitting into half etched grooves and/or tab/slot assembly are a good guide).

 

There are various suppliers of tools but I would suggest contacting Phil Atkinson at Hobby Holidays. As a modeller himself (albeit 7mm) he can offer pragmatic advice. The other thing is a good soldering iron and the correct solder/flux. I would recommend at least a 25W Antex with a 3mm bit, plus 145 degree solder and a liquid flux for starts.

 

High Level chassis kits tend to lean towards state of the art with plenty of detail. I would suggest you contact Chris at High Level to discuss. Whatever you choose, avoid outside valve gear for your first attempt.

 

 

I echo your comments about Phil Atkinson. He is extremely helpful, talks good sense and stocks a lot of useful tools and stuff.

 

As to chassis assembly jigs v jig axles; the latter will do a good job and are relatively cheap, the former will do a good job but cost far more. Get the axles first - see how you get on. If you later plan to build a lot of chassis it might be worth getting the jig.

 

 

Picture shows jig axles being used to set bearings at correct spacing in the frames (model is O gauge).

[John_Hughes]

High Level kits are brilliant and - very important - have first-rate instructions which really do need to be followed!

 

However, even their 'simple' chassis kits do have rather a lot of bits, and so can be a relatively slow build; Comet are good (though not in the High Level class admittedly) but much quicker to build, and substantially less expensive, which can be a relief if it all goes pear-shaped (though it really shouldn't)..

 

Everything that others have said above is good advice; I'd only add Get a decent set of reamers, they're invaluable for the myriad times you'll need to make an etched hole accept the wire that's supposed to go through it.

[PenrithBeacon]

If building an etches chassis I think there are some basic low cost items required

 

1 A set of Comet Models loco frame assembly jigs are a good start, these are made in 00, EM & P4 gauges

 

2 A set of Hornblock alignment jigs, mine come from London Road models and are useful even fro soldering Top Hat axle bearings

 

3 A cheap packet of small broaches

 

In addition a 1/8th reamer is very usefull

 

These items may push up the price slightly and a chassis building jig may be something for the future

 

I now only but Highlevel gearboxes, as they are so good and work straight out of the box. I do have 2 Highlevel chassis (both built bu someone else) and they are a work of are, BUT for a first attempt either go for their simplest design (speak with Chris) or buy a very basic Comet Models or Southeastern Finecast or a Mainly Trains (from Wizard Models) Tank loco kit without any cylinders just to get your hand in. I have a 57xx chassis which has exquisite internal valve gear detail, may be a step too far for a first attempt

 

I would also go for a chassis first, just to get something going quickly. Now to be quite controversial etched loco bodies do look exceptionally good, but I would either build up a skill base with a simple etched wagon or van kit or build a whitemetal loco body first, again simply to ease yourself into loco building

 

There are some modellers who successfully jump in at the deep end and successfully build a complicated kit as a first build, far more fail when attempting the same, I would chose a small basic tank loco as a first kit.

 

Good luck and enjoy yourself

Echo all of the above, but in addition ...

 

If you want to use Comet frame jigs (I do) you will also need to use Comet frame spacers. I have found that frame spacers from different suppliers vary in width.

The LRM axle jigs are made of aluminium and may need polishing down to fit in a 1/8" hole.

High Level gearboxes and hornblocks are by far the best, I wouldn't use anything else.

[Petebe]

Hi Colin

 

what gauge are you interested in?

 

Pete

[BWsTrains]

Hi Colin

 

what gauge are you interested in?

 

Pete

Hi Pete,

 

basic "OO", nothing fancy

 

Colin

[BWsTrains]

If building an etches chassis I think there are some basic low cost items required

 

1   A set of Comet Models loco frame assembly jigs are a good start, these are made in 00, EM & P4 gauges

 

2  A set of Hornblock alignment jigs, mine come from London Road models and are useful even fro soldering Top Hat axle bearings

 

3   A cheap packet of small broaches

 

In addition a 1/8th reamer is very useful

 

....

Hi Hayfield,

 

Thanks for the above, just two questions.

 

Re point (3) broaches come in all shapes and sizes, can you point me to an example of what you mean?

Finally the 1/8th (inch I assume) reamer. any particular reason why specifically that size? Is that a standard size for something I'll need to be cutting precisely?

 

Colin

[BWsTrains]

High Level kits are brilliant and - very important - have first-rate instructions which really do need to be followed!

 

However, even their 'simple' chassis kits do have rather a lot of bits, and so can be a relatively slow build; Comet are good (though not in the High Level class admittedly) but much quicker to build, and substantially less expensive, which can be a relief if it all goes pear-shaped (though it really shouldn't)..

 

Everything that others have said above is good advice; I'd only add Get a decent set of reamers, they're invaluable for the myriad times you'll need to make an etched hole accept the wire that's supposed to go through it.

Thanks John,

 

Could please you advise on a suitable range of sizes for the reamers,

 

Regards,

 

Colin

[BWsTrains]

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to reply.

 

You've given me a lot to digest and having read thru I've now some more confidence that I can set out with a chassis kit build.

I accept it will be a learning process and will move slowly but it is winter here, my Bridge partner has headed off to warmer climes so I've more than the usual amount of time on my hands. I'll post something when either progress or the first hurdle pops into view but since almost everything I need comes from over there it'll be a while yet.

 

Regards,

 

Colin.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Echo all of the above, but in addition ...

 

If you want to use Comet frame jigs (I do) you will also need to use Comet frame spacers. I have found that frame spacers from different suppliers vary in width.

The LRM axle jigs are made of aluminium and may need polishing down to fit in a 1/8" hole.

High Level gearboxes and hornblocks are by far the best, I wouldn't use anything else.

LRM axle alignment jigs are now stainless steel. The aluminium ones sometimes suffered from a small raised "ridge" during the turning process which needed polishing of. The SS versions I also have didn't have this.

 

HL motor mounts (gearboxes) are very good, but the LRM and Branchlines ones also offer some different installation options.

 

Hi Hayfield,

 

Thanks for the above, just two questions.

 

Re point (3) broaches come in all shapes and sizes, can you point me to an example of what you mean?

Finally the 1/8th (inch I assume) reamer. any particular reason why specifically that size? Is that a standard size for something I'll need to be cutting precisely?

 

Colin

 

You'll need  broach for opening holes out to 4.0mm for top hat bearings (only a small amount of metal  - the etch cusp - need removing evenly).

 

Otherwise .4mm to 1.5 mm broaches should cover everything else.

 

The 1/8" reamer is to ream the axle bushes out to ensure sufficient running clearance.

 

Unfortunately these are some of the more expensive small tools you'll need.

[DCB]

The jig axles are handy I have a set for Romford crankpins and if I ever get my lathe to run true I will make another set for the Hornby crankpins I like to use

 

The problem comes when the bits don't line up and you start filing holes bigger to make things work.  You need to be very sure which bit is wrong before starting to file metal.  Ideally checking everything at every stage it will all just go together like clockwork and any rogue bits can be identified before they are soldered firmly into place

 

The double reduction layshaft type gearboxes have transformed chassis construction since I started in the days of Triang X04s, just fold it up and bolt the frames round it. We sed to spend ages with files trying to mesh Romford gears on X04s and the like but conversely the RP25 wheel flanges don't allow the amount of mis alignment the old Romfords did before locos derail constantly.

 

Have fun

[Steamport Southport]

Before you start buying anything, buy this.

 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Locomotive-kit-Chassis-Construction-4mm/dp/1874103100

 

 

Still available new from the publishers for about the same price.

 

 

http://titfield.co.uk/Wild-Swan/Model-Locos.htm

 

 

 

 

Jason

Edited June 19, 2018 by Steamport Southport

[Worsdell forever]

I use this broach for opening up to 1/8" and over. http://www.hobbyholidays.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=BROACH3.0

 

And a set of these for smaller stuff. http://www.hobbyholidays.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=BROACHSET4

 

There's some very tasty looking needle files on there, http://www.hobbyholidays.co.uk/products.php?cat=75  the more you pay the better they should be, cheap ones tend to chatter, go blunt and block up, also don't be afraid to use your best ones for whitemetal, it won't harm them.

[doilum]

Not everything has to be expensive. Some of the most useful things can be free. Small salvaged piece of plate glass. Collection of lolly stick and coffee stirrers. A 12 x 18 scrap of ply with a strip of straight hardwood glued to one long side.

Try car boot sales and house clearance shops. When old modelers pass away, their collection of well worn tools may appear almost worthless.

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but a pin vice to hold tiny drills is pretty essential.

[brossard]

Jason beat me to it.  I was also going to suggest Rices book on chassis construction.  I built my first chassis - Perserverance for the ubiquitous Bachmann Pannier a great many years ago and had a lot of trepidation.

 

I slavishly followed Iain's advice and obtained the soldering supplies and tools he recommended.  I also made the jig he described for getting the chassis flat and square.

 

The result was a chassis that worked first time.

 

I think you can get most if not all of the kit described above from Eileen's Emporium.

 

John

[John_Hughes]

Thanks John,

 

Could please you advise on a suitable range of sizes for the reamers,

 

Regards,

 

Colin

 

Mea culpa - I meant broaches. However, a 1/8" reamer is useful for making sure that the axles are a proper fit in the bearings (some bearings are a tad on the tight side) but broaches are really what I had in mind.

 

Check out the Eileen's Emporium website for a number of options; my preference is for sizes up to 2mm, but others may disagree.

 

(I have no connection with Eileen's other than as a very happy customer, and one who is constantly amazed at the speed of their delivery service. They do a lot of shows, too!)