Question. Would Rapido Trains Be Interested Producing European HO Scale Trains?

[BritishRail60062]

Hello everyone.

 

I thought I would shine a light on a potential new marketing opportunity for Rapido Trains to consider making some very popular European HO scale model trains. As if their UK OO and N gauge models are anything to go by. They are fantasitc in terms of detail and its proven that they spend a load of time and investment with the development of the model train that is the key point to why their model trains are so nicely made and detailed. 

 

On the other hand. This has got me thinking about the possibility of Rapido Trains producing European HO scale trains. I wonder if Rapido Trains teamed up with SNCF and Thalys for legal and licensing agreements and produced their first European HO Scale Train Pack in the form of the TGV Reseau in the Silver/Blue and the "Carmillon" liveries as well as a TGV Thalys PBA would be a viable start for this range. With all the candy in terms of the super detailing, cab lights, directional lighting as well as the powerful all wheel drive setup that has been tried and tested on other models like the APT-E for example.

 

I wonder how many people would be interested in a new TGV third generation set that would be a far superior model? Should this be a successful venture and if demand would enable a vast amount of sales. Perhaps Rapido Trains could venture into making other model trains from Various European countries to expand their new range for the European modellers.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/brize/8596581595/

Photo of the TGV Thalys PBA in real life.

 

For the record. I am aware that Mehano make various TGV train sets but these are aimed more for the toy market if anything and they are very basic 4 piece sets. Nothing there that would even remotely match the accuracy and detail that Rapido Trains implement as standard on their range of professional model trains that are aimed at the modeller.

 

I welcome all positive and constructive feedback on this topic.

 

All the best.

Edited June 21, 2018 by BritishRail60062

[BR60103]

Jason and Bill talked to our club 2 years ago. I think they let slip how much it costs to produce a loco.  Are you prepared to mortgage your house to sponsor production?

(Jason is English by birth and Canadian by residence.)

[adb968008]

Would Raipdo make it, Ive no idea.

 

ButMoney talks,

 

if your putting up enough cash i’d make it for you (and find someone to make it for me).

 

The question your asking isn’t who should make it, any of a dozen Chinese factories can make it, and across UK, Europe and Asia there’s probably dozens more commissioners who could take on the work and deliver it. One of the reasons there are so many commissions today is because finding a manufacturer is as easy as Alibaba.. Refined, ShineDew,Regalway,SKMode etc etc are all but an English speaking website click away As are CAD designers / Scanners.

 

The question is can you sell it ?

 

If there are enough customers out there, who can afford it, at the price per unit that you would need to sell for, that gives you your money back plus a return for your efforts.

 

The other question to ask yourself, if it’s such a simple obvious model to create with such apparent demand, how come none of Europe’s modelling companies have already made it ? TGV isn’t an obscure 0-6-0t, in demand, complexity or public imagination.

 

There could be other factors, licensing, copyright, access to the CADs or the prototype, even just speaking the language.

 

If the answer is still yes, yes and yes plus it financially makes sense, and you’ve got the cash upfront to pay for it... then why go to 1 manufacturer, you should at least shop around several to get a range measure on time, quality & cost, if for no other reason than to ensure the measures are inline with your own expectations and negotiating terms to validate your choice.

 

Finally, as broad a church as this forum is, the market for a Thalys TGV would probably be stronger in countries where it actually runs.. Holland, Belgium, France rather than the UK.

Edited June 22, 2018 by adb968008

[brushman47544]

Jouef already make a perfectly acceptable TGV in HO.

 

This one HJ2231 was produced in Carmillion http://www.traindefrance.fr/fr/tgv/1611-rame-tgv-sud-est-sncf-nouvelle-livree-de-jouef-hj-2231.html although now generally sold out. All it would take is a relivery to produce the Thalys PBA set in the flickr photo.

 

Can't see the market for all new tooling to be honest.

[Talltim]

Jouef already make a perfectly acceptable TGV in HO.

 

This one HJ2231 was produced in Carmillion http://www.traindefrance.fr/fr/tgv/1611-rame-tgv-sud-est-sncf-nouvelle-livree-de-jouef-hj-2231.html although now generally sold out. All it would take is a relivery to produce the Thalys PBA set in the flickr photo.

 

Can't see the market for all new tooling to be honest.

Not sure the Jouef model is to Rapido standards. However also not sure there is a large enough market for an additional (even if better) model

[stewartingram]

Why not ask them direct?

 

Stewart

[No Decorum]

I dare say they have enough on their plates with us 00 modellers agitating for more 00!

[tomparryharry]

Perhaps one question is whether  Rapido would consider making 20mm gauge track?

 

It's certainly closer to gauge than 16.5mm, and our colonial cousins have been down that road before

H0 has it's benefits, as it's closer to scale than hitherto.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

[Pacific231G]

Perhaps one question is whether  Rapido would consider making 20mm gauge track?

 

It's certainly closer to gauge than 16.5mm, and our colonial cousins have been down that road before

H0 has it's benefits, as it's closer to scale than hitherto.

 

Cheers,

 

Ian.

In terms of scale to gauge, European H0 at 1:87 is exactly to scale; standard gauge is defined as a minimum of 1435mm and 16.5 x 87 = 1435.5, Check and crossing clearances are of course another matter but many P87 modellers routinely use off the shelf Peco etc, track for plain hidden trackage.

 

I'm a little confused as to why Rapido might consider making 20mm gauge track? Exact scale standard gauge track for 4mm/ft (1:76.2) is 18.83mm; 19mm was the gauge used by some modellers in Britain and then adopted for OO in North America while 18mm was the original EM gauge( later widened to 18.2mm). Whilst 20mm gauge would be correct for Russian 5ft (1520mm) gauge prototypes modelled in 4mm/ft scale I've never heard of anyone actually using it.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Pacific231G

[The Stationmaster]

I suspect Rapido's interest in making 20mm gauge track is going to be little different from their interest in making any sort of TGV (in the sense the term is used in France) - pay them enough to do it and place a big enough order and they'll try their best to fit it into their production schedule.  Don't offer them enough to do it and/or don't place a sufficiently large order and they won't do it (and if their check on a project proposer's business background and credit worthiness isn't up to what they're seeking I doubt they'll consider it all).

[Joseph_Pestell]

The market for detailed models of long fixed-rake modern trains is very small. Because:

 

They don't fit into most collectors' showcases;

They are too long for most modellers' layouts;

They are very expensive;

They are a bit dull.

 

I think that it is entirely possible that Rapido might take an interest in European HO. But it would be for shorter fixed formations such as the 1950s TEE diesel sets. Or for the luxury loco-hauled trains.

[Talltim]

You might get one of these https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB-CFF-FFS_RAm_TEE_I_and_NS_DE4

[Joseph_Pestell]

You might get one of these https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB-CFF-FFS_RAm_TEE_I_and_NS_DE4

 

That seems the most likely to me. Not only is it a short, but interesting, train, it ran in several countries. There have been models of it but not AFAIK for a long time.

 

Edit: And, of course, a Canadian angle to please Jason.

Edited June 22, 2018 by Joseph_Pestell

[Colin_McLeod]

At the right price I would get a blue and silver TGV. If price is too high I would go for a lower spec model at a reasonable cost.

[autocoach]

You might look at https://rapidotrains.com/ to get an idea of what Rapido is doing for North American markets.  There is an large amount of product there even if it does skew a bit northward. 

[jonklein611]

I got one of the recent Jouef  TGV releases.  It's near Rapido quality (not sure on how prototype specific), has sound, and was flippin expensive to try to recreate a full rake.

 

The four car base set was $370 USD.

 

Each add on car was $45 USD, and you need six to get to a full rake.  So you're looking at $700 USD for Jouef quality.  I can't imagine what a detailed Rapido TGV would cost.

[jjb1970]

That seems the most likely to me. Not only is it a short, but interesting, train, it ran in several countries. There have been models of it but not AFAIK for a long time.

 

Edit: And, of course, a Canadian angle to please Jason.

Already done, and done well, by LS, Roco and Marklin/Trix, not sure there's a space in the market for a new entrant to offer another one. Bit risky too, Roco or Trix could do an aggressively priced re-release just to send a message.

[mikeharvey22]

Jason Shron gave his official view on this in this thread three years ago. Post #8 explains.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/87417-rapido-trains-french-release/

Edited June 22, 2018 by mikeharvey22

[BritishRail60062]

Some interesting points to absorb there. I think that the best method to test the water in the market here would be for RT to just make the four car set like Lima/Trix/Jouef etc has done in the past. Then make the extra coach packs of two or three where the buyers could expand their TGV to make a full set of 10 units (2+8 formation) for those that have the space for a full set. This would offer a choice.

 

I don't know if the language barrier would be an issue as such because the SNCF website is in English as well as Native Francais. Besides this, DTG that develops Train Simulator 2018 that is a British company has a contract with SNCF to produce French trains and routes. With keeping this in mind, negotating a contract and a licence isn't impossible. I would say that the main barrier for this venture to be viable would be the demand for this TGV which I would think could be higher now as no-one currently produces this model at present since Mehano stopped producing the premium models in 2008 and now only make TGV train sets.

 

Trix/Marklin only make the TGV POS, Lyria and the Thalys PBKA sets which was around 2009/2010 and use the Duplex designed power cars that are different to the TGV Reseau/Atlanique/Thalys PBA. That is about 7 years ago as those train packs are getting very hard to find and they sell for silly money on the well known auction site .

 

Jouef already make a perfectly acceptable TGV in HO.

 

This one HJ2231 was produced in Carmillion http://www.traindefrance.fr/fr/tgv/1611-rame-tgv-sud-est-sncf-nouvelle-livree-de-jouef-hj-2231.html although now generally sold out. All it would take is a relivery to produce the Thalys PBA set in the flickr photo.

 

Can't see the market for all new tooling to be honest.

 

That one in the link is not a second/third generation TGV set but it is the first generation TGV-PSE (Paris Sud-Est) that was the original ones that were built in 1978 that wore the Orange/White/Grey livery . In truth, The second/generation TGV sets that are of the TGV Atlantique/Reseau/Thalys PBA were last modelled in the early 2000's by Lima with the exception of the TGV Reseau Duplex as HJ2056 that was released by Hornby/Jouef in 2006/2007.

 

Jouef did make a HO scale TGV Atlantique in the 1990's, but it would be extremely unfair to compare this model to a RT model train as the RT quality and accuracy would make it look very much like a toy.

[dibber25]

That seems the most likely to me. Not only is it a short, but interesting, train, it ran in several countries. There have been models of it but not AFAIK for a long time.

 

Edit: And, of course, a Canadian angle to please Jason.

It's been done. I bought this one second-hand and Dave Lowery repainted it into Northlander livery for me. Chris Nevard took the photo on Egham & Staines MRS layout. (CJL)

Edited June 22, 2018 by dibber25

[Andy Mac]

Some interesting points to absorb there. I think that the best method to test the water in the market here would be for RT to just make the four car set like Lima/Trix/Jouef etc has done in the past. Then make the extra coach packs of two or three where the buyers could expand their TGV to make a full set of 10 units (2+8 formation) for those that have the space for a full set. This would offer a choice.

 

I don't know if the language barrier would be an issue as such because the SNCF website is in English as well as Native Francais. Besides this, DTG that develops Train Simulator 2018 that is a British company has a contract with SNCF to produce French trains and routes. With keeping this in mind, negotating a contract and a licence isn't impossible. I would say that the main barrier for this venture to be viable would be the demand for this TGV which I would think could be higher now as no-one currently produces this model at present since Mehano stopped producing the premium models in 2008 and now only make TGV train sets.

 

Trix/Marklin only make the TGV POS, Lyria and the Thalys PBKA sets which was around 2009/2010 and use the Duplex designed power cars that are different to the TGV Reseau/Atlanique/Thalys PBA. That is about 7 years ago as those train packs are getting very hard to find and they sell for silly money on the well known auction site .

 

 

 

That one in the link is not a second/third generation TGV set but it is the first generation TGV-PSE (Paris Sud-Est) that was the original ones that were built in 1978 that wore the Orange/White/Grey livery . In truth, The second/generation TGV sets that are of the TGV Atlantique/Reseau/Thalys PBA were last modelled in the early 2000's by Lima with the exception of the TGV Reseau Duplex as HJ2056 that was released by Hornby/Jouef in 2006/2007.

 

Jouef did make a HO scale TGV Atlantique in the 1990's, but it would be extremely unfair to compare this model to a RT model train as the RT quality and accuracy would make it look very much like a toy.

 

Ash, if you provided Rapido Trains the £200,000 to develop the model, or arrange for the money to be raised through crowd funding, i’m Sure they would assist and advise as best they can in how you could try and sell them to recoup your financial out lay...

Jason has quite clearly stated his thoughts on this, so i’m Not sure why you think he should test the waters with a 4 car set....

[Peter Crawford]

Jouef do the 'top end' of the market for £400 with DCC Sound or £250 DC, while Mehano are doing more varieties with less detail for less than 100 euros each.

[jjb1970]

I think it's worth keeping in mind that the European HO market is ruthlessly competitive and standards already tend to be very high. And the established "big" players such as Roco/Fleischmann and Marklin/Trix have been suffering the same erosion of their market by newer entrants, many of whom are small, lean and mean. Companies like LS, ACME, LE and REE have made some tremendous models. And then there is Piko, which has been something of a one company disruptive force in the HO market. And not to forget the Hornby international brands which can work to exceptionally high standards.

[davknigh]

Rapido has a number of Canadian prototype steam engines on the drawing boards starting with the CPR Royal Hudson. I suspect that their resources will be dedicated to this task before venturing into unknown waters.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[BritishRail60062]

Ash, if you provided Rapido Trains the £200,000 to develop the model, or arrange for the money to be raised through crowd funding, i’m Sure they would assist and advise as best they can in how you could try and sell them to recoup your financial out lay...

Jason has quite clearly stated his thoughts on this, so i’m Not sure why you think he should test the waters with a 4 car set....

 

Oh believe me. If I had the £200k to hand. I would without a doubt step up to the plate and get this new TGV model underway. The crowd-funding idea is another viable idea I have put into my notebook as potential business ideas as well as I am going to go the self-employed route once I have decided which one is most sustainable and viable as well.

 

Andy, if I may ask you a question here buddy. Do you not think that the 4 car set would be the easiest option for those that have limited space that would prevent a 2+8 full rake set whilst producing the extra car packs for the veteran modellers and those with large layouts that can run the full 2+8 sets or even the 2x10 double TGV's for exhibitions?

 

I like the crowd-funding idea avenue, just leave it with me for the time being whilst I knock up a business plan. I think we're onto something .