Question. Would Rapido Trains Be Interested Producing European HO Scale Trains?

[BritishRail60062]

Just had another brainwave here. It might also be a safer bet for Rapido to consider these two trains as long as licences will not be a problem. I was thinking that as the European HO scale train market will be too much of a risk to make it viable. I wonder if Rapido Trains would consider making the Class 373 TMST Eurostar that is now also named as the E300 as an 8 OO gauge pack? Then for those that wanted to extend their sets with extra carriages etc. Perhaps RT could make extension packs with the articulated trailer cars? Something that Hornby has overlooked for the last 22 years and I think that if RT did make a new Class 373 with all wheel drive, directional lights and even illuminated interiors for the trailer cars as well as other functions like cab lights and a provision for DCC sound.

 

The second new OO gauge train that RT could also consider producing in OO gauge would be the Class 374 Eurostar Siemens Velaro as that is the newest international train on the block. Although most people have various opinions about the ride quality and the design of the prototype that is their right to have. From a modelling point of view. This one could be a nice seller for RT as no one else currently produces the E320 at this time . Therefore I think this could be a good option to add an Inter-European train into the market in the form of OO gauge whilst adding something new for us to enjoy.

 

Hornby Jouef have announced extra Thalys and Duplex trains for the end of 2018. Must be a relief for Jason.


https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/brands/jouef-h0-1-87/new-for-2018/jouef-autumn-winter-range.html?utm_campaign=2131806_Hornby%20-%20International%20Range%20Winter%202018&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Hornby%20PLC&utm_content=Jouef&_%24ja=tsid%3A71284&dm_i=2DJZ,19OWU,230K08,42N0E,1

Thanks for the info mate. Its about time that they should make a new Thalys as this will fit the bill nicely for my collection of streamlined trains . I hope they will make a new TGV Thalys PBA set in 2019 that uses the Reseau shaped powercars. I will be buying up some trailers in tow as it would be plain daft for me to overlook this .

[Talltim]

Why are you so obsessed by Rapido making them, as opposed to other manufacturers? They tend to make stuff they have an interest in, and none of those you have mentioned strike me as Rapido style trains

Edited July 3, 2018 by Talltim

[Colin_McLeod]

Hornby Jouef have announced extra Thalys and Duplex trains for the end of 2018. Must be a relief for Jason.https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/brands/jouef-h0-1-87/new-for-2018/jouef-autumn-winter-range.html?utm_campaign=2131806_Hornby%20-%20International%20Range%20Winter%202018&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Hornby%20PLC&utm_content=Jouef&_%24ja=tsid%3A71284&dm_i=2DJZ,19OWU,230K08,42N0E,1

Maybe Hornby read this thread and acted fast!

[BritishRail60062]

Why are you so obsessed by Rapido making them, as opposed to other manufacturers? They tend to make stuff they have an interest in, and none of those you have mentioned strike me as Rapido style trains

What makes you think that? They are British trains because they run in Britain. The Class 373/374 operate in Britain which is what I am aiming at now. I realise that the HO European market would be too risky. But here is a couple of questions I would like to ask you.

 

1, Why rule out the Eurostar?

 

2, What makes you think that RT would not be interested in making a new Class 373 and a Class 374 in OO gauge?

 

 

Maybe Hornby read this thread and acted fast! ;)

 

That's the spirit . I will be filling Hornby's pockets at Christmas when buying those two.TGV's .

[Talltim]

Fixed formation long EMUs in OO is a risky proposition for any manufacturer, especially ones with a limited sphere of operations and choice of liveries. Admittedly the APT is even more limited, but it’s shorter and it has a place in the hearts of many of the age group with the most to spend on models. There was also the link with the NRM to provide to give backing to it. And Jason has a thing for it.
The Pendolino is in N where people tend to be more likely to have room to run full length set plus the lead and much of the financial risk was taken by RevolutioN
The only British models Rapido have announced that are not in partnership with an existing British retailer are the gunpowder van and the bus. The bus is definitely Jason’s baby and I suspect the van was pushed for internally as well as being a gap in the market and not a huge risk.
My view, from outside the company obviously, is that Rapido’s priorities go something like this
- Canadian trains that Jason wants for his layout
- Other things that Jason likes
And then in no particular order
- Iconic trains in conjunction with third parties
- Things that will sell in Canada
- Things that will sell in the US (and Canada)
- Things that other members of the Rapido team want that they can persuade Jason will be a good bet
I don’t see either Eurostar set fitting in any of those categories

Edited July 4, 2018 by Talltim

[Joseph_Pestell]

Rapido is up to 11 employees (they recently updated their staff page) though that doesn't necessarily account for the frequent and multiple firing of employees...*

 

https://rapidotrains.com/meet-the-staff/

 

They also, if not already then soon, will be up to 3 factories though that assumes they keep both of the 2 original ones.

 

[*] for those not on Facebook where most of it happens it is a frequent occurrence for Jason to fire people, some of them have been fired in the double digits, and sometimes twice in one day.  Fortunately they all appear to be quite content to ignore him.

 

When does the "reality TV" show start?

[njee20]

What makes you think that? They are British trains because they run in Britain. The Class 373/374 operate in Britain which is what I am aiming at now. I realise that the HO European market would be too risky. But here is a couple of questions I would like to ask you.

 

1, Why rule out the Eurostar?

 

2, What makes you think that RT would not be interested in making a new Class 373 and a Class 374 in OO gauge?

 

Aside from the point's Tim's raised (which I agree with) the 374s have only ever operated on HS1, so whilst technically "in the UK", they're not something many people are going to purchase outside of a real 'rule 1' purchase, and I'm not sure enough people are that bothered by them. They're part of the same family as the ICE3 aren't they? So again Piko or Jouef would be a more obvious candidate. Then do you make them OO, so they match 92s and Javelins (which is basically all they can run with prototypically), but exclude the European market, or HO so they wouldn't even be the right size for the UK market?

 

The 373 is similar, yes it was always a weird choice by Hornby all those years ago to only offer the central divisible coaches as an add on, rather than a 'normal' trailer which could have been far more easily adapted, but aside from a few dedicated folk I've not seen much of a market for a RTR model, mainly for the same reasons as the 374. They're also bloody long, even in N a 2+12 is a decent size, and the full 2+16 is enormous. In OO that would be prohibitive, and the market for a high spec model which few can actually run is even more limited.

 

You want a full Eurostar? Go for N gauge, Kato ones are readily available, decent models and well priced!

Edited July 4, 2018 by njee20

[adb968008]

Don’t forget as price goes Rapido is way high up there, and no discounting..straight RRP, plus postage.

 

A 16 car E320 is 5.26m long in OO gauge (4.59m in HO) , with 2 power cars at circa £200 each, and 14 cars @circa £100 each *

 

your looking at a train costing c£1800.

 

That’s DCC ready, add another c£300 for sound.

Who’s got £2100 for a full DCC sound train ?

 

An 8 car could be c£900 @2.63m length (2.3m in HO) - equivalent to a 10 + loco hauled train of mk1’s.

 

*assumption based on £220 GNR, £125 Dynanometer car, £230 for 2 car 156 sprinter, £130 J70, plus assume there’s license associated with logos etc and 3 years plus inflation, price rises and £ declines since these were originally announced.

 

By comparison,

 

Jouef Thalys prices out at £312 for a 4 car..

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/brands/jouef-h0-1-87/jouef-h0-1-87-thalys-pbka-4-unit-pack-including-motorized-head-dummy-head-and-two-end-coaches-1st-and-2nd-class-period-vi.html

 

Plus £56 per extra car

So a 10 car HO gauge set would be 2.3m long, and set you back

 

£648 DCC ready,

£770 for sound.

 

But still sounds expensive...?

I recently bought a PIKO ICE set, and added two extra coaches, came in at less than £200 all in, if I made a full length 8 car set it would be £300, and Piko isn’t a soviet eastern block quality any more..the quality is excellent. Given PIKOs market disrupting ways across Europe i’d wager they would be a contender for a punt on a Eurostar E320 given it’s a wide open goal,without competition and Eurostars increasing European footprint.

Edited July 4, 2018 by adb968008

[dibber25]

Don’t forget as price goes Rapido is way high up there, and no discounting..straight RRP, plus postage.

 

A 16 car E320 is 5.26m long in OO gauge (4.59m in HO) , with 2 power cars at circa £200 each, and 14 cars @circa £100 each *

 

your looking at a train costing c£1800.

 

That’s DCC ready, add another c£300 for sound.

Who’s got £2100 for a full DCC sound train ?

 

An 8 car could be c£900 @2.63m length (2.3m in HO) - equivalent to a 10 + loco hauled train of mk1’s.

 

*assumption based on £220 GNR, £125 Dynanometer car, £230 for 2 car 156 sprinter, £130 J70, plus assume there’s license associated with logos etc and 3 years plus inflation, price rises and £ declines since these were originally announced.

 

By comparison,

 

Jouef Thalys prices out at £312 for a 4 car..

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/brands/jouef-h0-1-87/jouef-h0-1-87-thalys-pbka-4-unit-pack-including-motorized-head-dummy-head-and-two-end-coaches-1st-and-2nd-class-period-vi.html

 

Plus £56 per extra car

So a 10 car HO gauge set would be 2.3m long, and set you back

 

£648 DCC ready,

£770 for sound.

 

But still sounds expensive...?

I recently bought a PIKO ICE set, and added two extra coaches, came in at less than £200 all in, if I made a full length 8 car set it would be £300, and Piko isn’t a soviet eastern block quality any more..the quality is excellent. Given PIKOs market disrupting ways across Europe i’d wager they would be a contender for a punt on a Eurostar E320 given it’s a wide open goal,without competition and Eurostars increasing European footprint.

 

I think that there you've given considerable clarity to the whole problem of modern trains - fixed-rake units of considerable length containing various different vehicles, each of which requires a complete tooling suite. That all pushes the tooling costs sky-high, while the length and price drastically reduces the number of potential purchasers. The manufacturer does a rough calculation of the number of sales v. the cost of tooling and manufacture and, hey presto, the final sale price increases further. There are certainly some trains which are just not viable as models and we have to accept that. Finally, as it was Rapido who, when asked to quote for a one-off coach, advised that it wasn't going to be viable, I think it is highly unlikely they would go into lengthy European trains. They also seem to be very successful with their North American items at present and that will, doubtless, be a much easier market for them to serve than either the UK or Europe. 

[adb968008]

There are certainly some trains which are just not viable as models and we have to accept that.

 

True, but you can shop around.

Piko certainly are able to do fixed length trains, not just ICE but units, at prices comparable or lower than UK (and most EU) manufacturers, at a quality level that is comparative.

 

Each manufacturer has different cost bases, profit margins and capacity constraints / order books.

In my mind fixed length trains are viable, but probably not at Rapidos quality and price to be successful at required volumes.

 

If units were made at the quality of Hornbys new mk1’s, cutting out the fancy couplings, fancy lighting units, excessive separate parts, just keeping simple (mould it so it could be lit by an after market supplier), NEM std couplings using a Bachmann style coupling bar with a decent paint job a must.. then many units could become viable, especially those which are 4 car with 2 identical cars, or those with minimal differences that accommodated by slides in a tooling... a 4 car for £250 could still be possible...

if that means DCC fans have to fork out an extra 6 quid for two chips, instead of an extra £50 to have the unit fully wired and compatible, so be it.

 

When it comes to modellers of multiple units beggars can’t be choosers, and if that means nodding a bit more towards the 70’s for technology but benefitting 21st century tool quality, CAD accuracy, paint quality, or have nothing at all viable or economically affordable to play with i’d suspect they would still buy it, and there wouldn’t be competition for it from elsewhere.

A 6 car trans pennies for example is just like 5 mk1’s and a motorised chassis.. Hornbys Maunsell Buffet is £47.99 and the new Dapol 121/122 is £150.. using those prices as a guide could bring it in at £400 and without 100+ separately attached pieces maybe bring it down another £50, only 4 tooling .. 2x DMC, 2x MBSL, 1x TSL, 1x TFLRB.. a 6 car Trix one unboxed fetches £350 still today, despite everything being incorrect in every way from scale, to accuracy and performance not to mention paint job.

 

just be selective who makes it and what detail...

Edited July 4, 2018 by adb968008

[No Decorum]

I think that you might well be on to something. Separately applied details and extra functionality is pushing prices up faster than they would otherwise be rising. I dare say that some clever manufacturer is going to realise that an accurate model, carefully executed, is going to make a killing. Hornby Mk. Is are the way to do it. Suddenly, someone will bring in a train at half the price we expect and we’ll be falling over ourselves to buy it.

 

Whoever does it will have to be careful, though. Hornby Mk. IIes are not the way to do it nor are Oxford’s Mk IIIas. The errors in both are well documented and could and should have been avoided with more care and little extra expense.

 

£6 for an extra decoder, though? That would be good!

[jjb1970]

True, but you can shop around.

Piko certainly are able to do fixed length trains, not just ICE but units, at prices comparable or lower than UK (and most EU) manufacturers, at a quality level that is comparative.

 

Each manufacturer has different cost bases, profit margins and capacity constraints / order books.

In my mind fixed length trains are viable, but probably not at Rapidos quality and price to be successful at required volumes.

 

If units were made at the quality of Hornbys new mk1’s, cutting out the fancy couplings, fancy lighting units, excessive separate parts, just keeping simple (mould it so it could be lit by an after market supplier), NEM std couplings using a Bachmann style coupling bar with a decent paint job a must.. then many units could become viable, especially those which are 4 car with 2 identical cars, or those with minimal differences that accommodated by slides in a tooling... a 4 car for £250 could still be possible...

if that means DCC fans have to fork out an extra 6 quid for two chips, instead of an extra £50 to have the unit fully wired and compatible, so be it.

 

When it comes to modellers of multiple units beggars can’t be choosers, and if that means nodding a bit more towards the 70’s for technology but benefitting 21st century tool quality, CAD accuracy, paint quality, or have nothing at all viable or economically affordable to play with i’d suspect they would still buy it, and there wouldn’t be competition for it from elsewhere.

A 6 car trans pennies for example is just like 5 mk1’s and a motorised chassis.. Hornbys Maunsell Buffet is £47.99 and the new Dapol 121/122 is £150.. using those prices as a guide could bring it in at £400 and without 100+ separately attached pieces maybe bring it down another £50, only 4 tooling .. 2x DMC, 2x MBSL, 1x TSL, 1x TFLRB.. a 6 car Trix one unboxed fetches £350 still today, despite everything being incorrect in every way from scale, to accuracy and performance not to mention paint job.

 

just be selective who makes it and what detail...

 

I think Piko are the proverbial elephant in the room when discussing model train production.

 

Their models have superb mechanisms which offer silky smooth, quiet and powerful performance. Paint finish is as good as any RTR. Generally, shape and dimensional accuracy is as good as any other producer. Details are where it gets interesting as I think Piko Expert is what Hornby Design Clever wanted to be but wasn't, a very clever combination of separately applied parts and moulded detail to produce an excellent overall balance between cost and detail which appears to satisfy plenty of very discerning German and European modellers. They seem to have found that elusive sweet spot of an excellent product and keeping price sensible. They're a very good, no nonsense product and put development money where it matters to maximise bang per buck. For example, in the Expert range you aren't getting luxury packaging or fancy fripperies but the models are great. They have also developed a three tier HO range very successfully and are a good example of how to market high end, mid range enthusiast and entry level ranges together.

 

Overall they're a company that a lot of other companies could study. They don't seem to spend money unnecessarily, for example if it's detail you won't see then it isn't done which strikes me as eminently sensible.

[BritishRail60062]

The Class 373 was not only painted in Eurostar colours. But does anyone remember GNER White Rose?  So three variants could be produced and the Class 373 would make a great British train in the GNER White Rose colours. I rode it in 2002 from Kings Cross to Leeds when GNER had them. However my memory is fading so I don't remember the fleetnumbers from the top of my head .

[adb968008]

The Class 373 was not only painted in Eurostar colours. But does anyone remember GNER White Rose?  So three variants could be produced and the Class 373 would make a great British train in the GNER White Rose colours. I rode it in 2002 from Kings Cross to Leeds when GNER had them. However my memory is fading so I don't remember the fleetnumbers from the top of my head .

Fourth would be domestic SNCF Iivery.

 

What happened to the Jouef Eurostar tooling ?

[mdvle]

Don’t forget as price goes Rapido is way high up there, and no discounting..straight RRP, plus postage.

On June 25th Rapido announced a diesel - RS18 - which has a RRP of £173 and some passenger coaches - Tempo - which have a RRP of £84.  These are both Canadian prototypes with limited appeal in the US.

 

The Rapido prices, like any prices, are dependent on estimated demand on how much risk the commissioner is willing to take.

 

If Rapido's own products are distributed through all retailers then I expect you will see some discounting occur.

 

And while it won't help with the dream of a Eurostar, Jason does like other British trains which can help with the getting boss approval point that was brought up.

[njee20]

The Class 373 was not only painted in Eurostar colours. But does anyone remember GNER White Rose? So three variants could be produced and the Class 373 would make a great British train in the GNER White Rose colours. I rode it in 2002 from Kings Cross to Leeds when GNER had them. However my memory is fading so I don't remember the fleetnumbers from the top of my head .

But again, it’s not a “great British train”. It’s a TGV shoehorned into British loading gauge. Just don’t see the demand. There were 2 GNER liveries (blue doors and red doors) so extra options, but both very restrixted in time period.

[Andy Mac]

Then for those that wanted to extend their sets with extra carriages etc. Perhaps RT could make extension packs with the articulated trailer cars? Something that Hornby has overlooked for the last 22 years .

 

Really? A simple google search reveals R4013 Eurostar Coach Packs.....

[njee20]

Hornby only ever offered the pair of non-articulated divisible coaches from the centre of the units, of which there was only one pair per set. If they'd offered 'normal' articulated coaches they could easily have been re-purposed to be 1st and standard class coaches, plus the 'cafe bars' with a bit of work to the windows, combined those represent the other 12 coaches in a set, so it was a slightly curious choice which meant anyone wanting to model anything approaching a prototypical set had to buy lots of sets and cut them up.

I recall there are some on Shapeways, but at significant cost, and didn't Hurst Models do overlays or something to help convert existing models?

 

However, I still think it's a very niche model, and think you're woefully underestimating the would-be popularity of a high spec model, which would likely cost several thousand for a prototypical rake which could then only be run on the largest of layouts.

[Talltim]

The Class 373 was not only painted in Eurostar colours. But does anyone remember GNER White Rose?  So three variants could be produced and the Class 373 would make a great British train in the GNER White Rose colours. I rode it in 2002 from Kings Cross to Leeds when GNER had them. However my memory is fading so I don't remember the fleetnumbers from the top of my head .

The only one I've ever seen was in GNER paint, at Leeds. One day I'll do the Chunnel.

[Andy Hayter]

Really? A simple google search reveals R4013 Eurostar Coach Packs.....

 

Hornby did it in 00, but the Jouef/Hornby (this was a collaboration prior to Hornby purchasing Jouef) H0 model never had any intermediate coaches beyond the 4 car set. 

[jjb1970]

The best Eurostar model remains the old Kato N gauge model, as with other Kato models it had a superb mechanism, lovely finish, very well done tooling and was beautifully presented. You can model a big train too. And it wasn't expensive. Not much good if you don't do N though.

[BritishRail60062]

Really? A simple google search reveals R4013 Eurostar Coach Packs.....

 

So where are the intermediate articulated trailers available then? Those are the intermediate trailers where the Eurostar trains could be split in emergency situations if I remember correctly .

 

Fourth would be domestic SNCF Iivery.

 

What happened to the Jouef Eurostar tooling ?

 

Good question. I always wondered what happened to it to be honest as the HO scale model never really took off like the OO gauge Hornby one has .

 

 

The only one I've ever seen was in GNER paint, at Leeds. One day I'll do the Chunnel.

 

Each to their own taste and go for it mate if space permits for a Chunnel layout in OO gauge.

 

On the flipside though. It appears to me that us modern image railway modellers are just being ignored to some extent because if it wasn't for Revolution Trains working in conjunction with Rapido Trains and the same with RealTrack Models. We would not even get a look in for the likes of a new modern TEA tanker, Class 156, Class 144 etc.

 

Whilst I do appreciate a brand new wagon which a rake of those TEA tankers would look nice behind a Hornby Class 60. Surely something modern image with all the detailing and a decent weight with all wheel drive is not too much to ask? Or am I expected to wait until I reach my 60's to have a super detailed modern image model train that I had happy times riding on the real thing back in my 20's?

 

I am not unreasonable by any means but this years range of British trains from Hornby and Bachmann has not inspired me at all . That is what got me thinking about European HO scale in the first place .

[njee20]

You don’t want “something modern image with all the detailing...” etc, you want a specific prototype which is unlikely to be commercially viable. I doubt you’ll get one even in your 60s. Like it or not it’s a bit of an esoteric prototype, and repeating your wish for one doesn’t make it more likely I’m afraid. It’s nothing to do with being modern, other modern models are coming from Oxford, Dapol, Bachmann, Hattons and DJModels that I can think of (as well as Revolution and Realtrack).

 

Or model N gauge.

[mikeharvey22]

I think that the big problem with this one is that if @BritishRail60062 really wants the train, restricting it to the Rapido Trains part of RMWeb is not going to get the support from the modern 00 gauge modellers with huge layouts. Rapido aren't interested in this project, when there is already a Hornby version selling, and no sign of a crowd of people clamouring for a new version. If there was a market for the articulated intermediate coaches, I would have expected Hornby to have made them. But to use them properly the train becomes a minimum of eight cars so not exactly what you need on peoples' 8' x 4' layouts.

 

Having said that my 2+14 Kato Eurostars in original and current livery look great on my 10' x 2.2' layout with a long diagonal straight where they can swish past several other full length Kato TGVs (PSE orange, Ligne de Coeur, Thalys PBKA (two liveries), Duplex (two liveries), POS, Lyria, Réseau, AVE, etc) or some Revolution 11 car Pendolinos. Full length trains look great in N even using Rule One, and compromised part length trains in 00 gauge will always look wrong to me on a small layout.

Edited July 7, 2018 by mikeharvey22

[The Pilotman]

Indeed. I think there should be an element of “cutting your coat according to your cloth” in all this. When I came back to the hobby after a considerable gap I had enough space for a layout in N or OO. I looked at what was available for the area/era I wanted to model and it so happened that more of what I wanted was available in N. So that's the route I took.