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KESR vandalised


Chrisr40
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There's a lesson here, though - don't leave a cash float and alcohol on an unattended train overnight.  The likes of InterCity learned this several decades ago.

 

Much as I hate these criminals and their depressing actions, they're not stupid, they are cunning and opportunistic.  Chances are they're not thick chavs.

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Shame about the photograph, but then, to an untrained disinterested journalist anything in brown and cream is a Pullman.

 

Mike.

 

It is a Pullman though. I take it you mean the photo with the Scandinavian thing. The clue is in the livery and the names on the side.

 

 

I remember the Merseyside and Manchester Pullmans which were Mark Threes in Intercity livery. Still Pullmans.

 

 

 

Jason

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It is a Pullman though. I take it you mean the photo with the Scandinavian thing. The clue is in the livery and the names on the side.

 

 

I remember the Merseyside and Manchester Pullmans which were Mark Threes in Intercity livery. Still Pullmans.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Whilst technically repainted post preservation mk1's aren't Pullman cars, my point was that it would have been better to show the vandalised car in service in it's resplendent state, would have had more of an impact.

 

Mike.

PS. The Manchester and Liverpool Pullmans were mk2 derivatives.

Edited by Enterprisingwestern
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There's a lesson here, though - don't leave a cash float and alcohol on an unattended train overnight.  The likes of InterCity learned this several decades ago.

 

Much as I hate these criminals and their depressing actions, they're not stupid, they are cunning and opportunistic.  Chances are they're not thick chavs.

 

Unless they knew that alcohol and cash would be left there, then they would have broken in anyway and that is the majority of the loss to the railway.

As you say probably opportunistic, and the nature of that is that it would have happened anyway.

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PS. The Manchester and Liverpool Pullmans were mk2 derivatives.

 

Not in the 1980s they weren't.

 

They were Mark 3Bs built for the WCML and named after famous people from the North West such as John Lennon and LS Lowry. Branded Pullman.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Open#Mark_3

 

 

But my point still stands that they are Pullmans regardless of what their ancestry is. As are the Pullman Cars on the WHR and FR.

 

 

 

Jason

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But my point still stands that they are Pullmans regardless of what their ancestry is. As are the Pullman Cars on the WHR and FR.

 

 

I agree, to me 'Pullman' identifies a superior service rather than a particular stock.

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Not in the 1980s they weren't.

 

They were Mark 3Bs built for the WCML and named after famous people from the North West such as John Lennon and LS Lowry. Branded Pullman.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Open#Mark_3

 

 

But my point still stands that they are Pullmans regardless of what their ancestry is. As are the Pullman Cars on the WHR and FR.

 

 

 

Jason

 

The Mk 2 Pullmans were in service until 1985 and received intercity livery before the Mk 3's were introduced, so yes they were...

 

Not only that, they were the last coaches specifically built as Pullmans, rather than a standard body dressed up to be like a Pullman.

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I agree, to me 'Pullman' identifies a superior service rather than a particular stock.

Pullman was a coach builder, so to me it means carriages built by that company. They built a lot of carriages for the USA that were not super luxury, and there is a shade of green named after the company. According to Wikipedia they also built streetcars (trams) and trolleybuses.

 

Though I can see that their use in the UK means the term takes on a different meaning.

Edited by Zomboid
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Pullman was a coach builder, so to me it means carriages built by that company. They built a lot of carriages for the USA that were not super luxury, and there is a shade of green named after the company. According to Wikipedia they also built streetcars (trams) and trolleybuses.

 

Though I can see that their use in the UK means the term takes on a different meaning.

 

 

That's the way I interpret it,  When Pullman came to the UK in the 1800's he sent over flat packed coaches then negotiated their use in GN (& MR) services for a premium fare. about the turn of the century the GN then took over the Pullman cars and IIRC paid a fee to use the name 'Pullman' as it had become associated with superior service.

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My late friend Barry Dare had an interesting philosophy, he didn't lock his car.   One night vandals came to Blockley and smashed the drivers windows of every car in the street except Barry's looking for things to steal.  Barry wouldn't have known they had been in his apart from the service book was out of the glove box.  Other folk had days off work, expensive repairs etc.   

 

I therefore suggest you don't lock cars, whether automobiles or Pullmans.   Just fit bloody loud alarms to the inside so the little B's ears bleed.

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I'm slightly baffled by why it shouldn't be considered a Pullman car. 

 

Metropolitan Carriage & Wagon had a long history of building luxury carriages, and their association with "British Pullman" stock goes back to their building of the "Southern Belle" (all Pullman stock) for the LB&SCR in 1908.  This was the first licence building of Pullman carriages in the UK - before that some carriages were built in the USA and shipped over for assembly here.

 

https://www.brightontoymuseum.co.uk/index/Category:Southern_Belle

 

They continued to build Pullman carriages, both of wood and steel construction, which were supplied via or to the Pullman company itself.  They also built the carriages that made up the "Brighton Belle" (first Pullman electric multiple units).

 

From 1920 onwards they also built carriages for Compagnie Internationale des Wagons-Lits.

Edited by EddieB
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I'm slightly baffled by why it shouldn't be considered a Pullman car. 

 

 

 

That the coach which was subject to the vandal attack is a Pullman isn't in question.  It's the random Mk 1s or whatever they are in the photograph further down, which shows them being hauled by the Swiss steam loco.

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That the coach which was subject to the vandal attack is a Pullman isn't in question.  It's the random Mk 1s or whatever they are in the photograph further down, which shows them being hauled by the Swiss steam loco.

Thanks, I thought the debate had wandered into questioning the carriage itself.  Not Swiss - the loco was built in Sweden but operated in Norway.

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Of the three coaches in the picture, the rear one looks to be a Met-Cam Mk1 Pullman. The journalist (who probably wasn't 'disinterested') was, no doubt, tasked with finding a photo of the KES Pullman wine and dine train, and that he did. When I first went to the KES in the 1960s, the two Pullman cars, Theodora and Barbara, were still in the SR green livery in which they had run as non-Pullman cafeteria cars on Kent Coast expresses. A curious reversal of what has happened to some Mk1s which have ended up as Pullmans. The reference to Pullman in the UK refers to cars owned and operated by the Pullman Car Co, the UK outpost of the organisation founded by George Mortimer Pullman in order to provide a better standard of rail travel initially for travellers in the USA. Only a few of the cars operated by the company in the UK were actually built by Pullman, either in the USA or at Preston Park, Brighton, where the UK company had its works. The main builders were Metro-Cammell, Birmingham RC&W and Clayton. Here's one of the cars, with Hastings-line gauge Maunsell at Robertsbridge c. 1968. (Thanks to my friend Keith Jaggers for the shot - and, yes, that's me) (CJL)

post-1062-0-49615000-1530816943_thumb.jpg

Edited by dibber25
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The K&ESR is the biggest tourist attraction in the well-heeled town of Tenterden and the Pullmans have been stabled there a long time. These people knew what they were doing, probably bored on a hot summer night after watching the footie.

 

The railway probably needs better security including CCTV unless is already fitted.The collection of historic coaches at Tenterden, some stored outside, is priceless and irreplaceable.

 

I am seeing more examples of what used to be called 'mindless vandalism' such as bricks used to break plate glass windows and bus shelters, They think they won't get caught and it doesn't matter.

 

Dava

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  • 2 weeks later...

Pullman was a coach builder, so to me it means carriages built by that company. They built a lot of carriages for the USA that were not super luxury, and there is a shade of green named after the company. According to Wikipedia they also built streetcars (trams) and trolleybuses.

 

Though I can see that their use in the UK means the term takes on a different meaning.

 

 

I do agree with you on this one, bit like putting all posh the extras into a Mondeo with a Rolls Royce badge on the bonnet. However I guess new coaches must have to pass certain safety tests, so outwardly they will look alike.  

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I do agree with you on this one, bit like putting all posh the extras into a Mondeo with a Rolls Royce badge on the bonnet. However I guess new coaches must have to pass certain safety tests, so outwardly they will look alike.  

 

It did not stop Rover putting an MG badge on the front!

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It did not stop Rover putting an MG badge on the front!

 

 

Or Vanden Plas

 

I guess modern Pullmans is all about the interior design and service offered rather than exterior appearance, But there is something about the look of older carriages which sets them apart 

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