RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted July 6, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 6, 2018 First post to my new Workbench thread. I intend to post occasional updates on my latest projects. Current main project is building a Gresley ex GNR 65'6" Kitchen Car (diagram NE58) as converted from the 1906 Sheffield Stock Restaurant Car. I have tackled this by some heavy duty bashing of Kirk kits. I mainly used 1st and 3rd class sleeping cars, but needed a lot of joins - particularly on the Kitchen side as shown below. Despite looking a mess, it actually joined quite well as you can see in the next picture. I had to do quite a bit of sanding, filling and beading replacement, but it's now starting to look like the coach. I couldn't find windows with the correct ventilator pattern in my box of Kirk sides, so had to choose some of the right size, and add the ventilators using plastic strip. The GNR style door toplights were drilled and filed out. Next I need to tackle the underframe - some interesting gas cylinders there! Will post an update once the underframe is complete. Andy 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Mikkel Posted July 6, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 6, 2018 Very nice work. Can't have been easy to get all those parts aligned so well! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted July 7, 2018 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted July 7, 2018 Very nice work. Can't have been easy to get all those parts aligned so well! Thanks Mikkel, No, it wasn’t easy. I put a strip of plasticard along the bottom of the sides to hold it all together and to provide a lip for the floor to rest on. This helped, but not all the Kirk bits were the same thickness, so I had to break open a few joints and pack before rejoining. It’s still not perfect, but I’m hoping it will look good enough from normal viewing distances. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted July 10, 2018 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted July 10, 2018 I have now finished the underframe. Bogies are 247 developments LNWR 11’6” which are the closest match I can find. Most of the rest is MJT, with the gas canisters made out of different diameters of whiteboard pens with insulating tape for the strapping. As you can see work is continuing on the beading - I keep finding new bits that I need to sort out! Andy 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portchullin Tatty Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Probably too late, but I have been working on the ECJS 12 wheel bogies, which were probably the same as yours. You can see them here https://highlandmiscellany.com/tag/ecjs/ At the moment I am waiting to do a second test build of these; my first attempt sits a tad high - most of which I think is in the underframe and the set up point of the spring bearings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted July 10, 2018 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted July 10, 2018 Mark, I’m sure they are the same as mine so it’s a shame I didn’t know, but my LNWR ones are close enough for me on this build. If I have a go at another, I’ll be sure to look yours up. Thanks Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doilum Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 Thanks Mikkel, No, it wasn’t easy. I put a strip of plasticard along the bottom of the sides to hold it all together and to provide a lip for the floor to rest on. This helped, but not all the Kirk bits were the same thickness, so I had to break open a few joints and pack before rejoining. It’s still not perfect, but I’m hoping it will look good enough from normal viewing distances. Andy The trick is to get the top edge straight and let the door bottoms sort themselves. A strip of straight steel screwed to some mdf makes a good jig. Not my idea but it works, especially when doing custom jobs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted July 18, 2018 Share Posted July 18, 2018 The GNR style door toplights were drilled and filed out. You have more patience than me. I applaud that. Bogies are 247 developments LNWR 11’6” which are the closest match I can find. Exactly what I used for mine. Mark, delighted to hear that your bogies are still moving forward. I have a few etches put aside for them when they're available. Have you thought of 3D printing and/or resin casting for the bolsters? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portchullin Tatty Posted July 19, 2018 Share Posted July 19, 2018 Mark, delighted to hear that your bogies are still moving forward. I have a few etches put aside for them when they're available. Have you thought of 3D printing and/or resin casting for the bolsters? Yes, but I have not got to it yet! Actually, it is an imperative as the axlebox/springs that I have used are no longer available due to the demise of Andy Copp at Lochgorm. I need them for the fox bogies too - something also of relevance to NER/GNR modellers. Must kick my ar*e to get these done................... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted July 27, 2018 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted July 27, 2018 Well hot weather has stopped play on the Kitchen Car, so in true Blue Peter style I thought I'd post some examples of earlier Kirk kit bashes that I have done. The first is a d.157 Sleeper First. This was inspired by the conversion on Steve Banks' web site. I'm pleased with the way the body has come out. However this was before I was converted to MJT underframe parts, so the underframe needs revisiting at some point. I think there should also be some gas cyclinders somewhere! This was a relatively simple cut and shut of the Kirk sleeper kit as can be seen in the attached photos. ...and here is the finished coach. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted July 27, 2018 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted July 27, 2018 ...and here is a rather more ambitious attempt at a d161/162 articulated pair. Some of the cuts for this were quite easy. But others were more complex! I'm pleased with the finished article, which forms part of my 'Aberdonian' rake (as did the prototype of which there were only two examples). The sides were mounted on Hornby Gresley shorty donors which were cut to size. Underframe is mainly MJT and the heavy duty bogies definitely make a difference. . 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted August 1, 2018 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted August 1, 2018 The cooler weather over the weekend has allowed some progress on the kitchen car. Here are some pictures of the state of play. There are still some blemishes, but I think that’s inevitable given the amount of cut and shutting. Im hoping the wonky window tops will disappear under the roof, but if not, I will have to tweak them later. I’m now stuck and hoping someone (Most likely Jonathan) can help. Firstly, the two pictures I have (p602 of Backtrack vol 10 no 11 and plate 68 in GNR and ECJS Carriahes from 1905 by Harris) both show the vehicle seemingly with no lining. Does anyone know whether this was so and why this would have been, or is just too faint in the photos? Secondly, the Isinglass drawing shows one window (the attendants toilet) as ‘opaque’ with the rest unmarked. The pictures seem to confirm that this window (which is white in my photo below) is whiteish but the other windows seem partly frosted when compared with the door droplights which are clear. It would be unusual for a kitchen car to have clear windows and I’m hoping not, as I don’t want the hassle of building a kitchen interior! Does anyone know what the answer is. Also I have no picture of the corridor side. Should these windows be frosted? Regards Andy 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted August 1, 2018 Share Posted August 1, 2018 I can only guess from the same pictures as you, but I'd read the Backtrack picture as showing all those windows whited out except the ones in the doors and the large one extreme left. The toplights may be clear, that wasn't uncommon. The lining ought to run along the upper beading and so may simply not be visible. On the corridor side, Doncaster built LNER kitchen/diners had the windows whited out below the ventilators. I'd probably do the same here. That's my two penn'orth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted August 2, 2018 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted August 2, 2018 I can only guess from the same pictures as you, but I'd read the Backtrack picture as showing all those windows whited out except the ones in the doors and the large one extreme left. The toplights may be clear, that wasn't uncommon.The lining ought to run along the upper beading and so may simply not be visible.On the corridor side, Doncaster built LNER kitchen/diners had the windows whited out below the ventilators. I'd probably do the same here.That's my two penn'orth. Thanks for that confirmation Jonathan. I’ll go with (off) white for all the non door windows as that will make it look like a kitchen car whether or not it’s correct. Unfortunately my method of construction will make it difficult to change once I’ve glued the roof on, so fingers crossed that nobody else knows better! I now think I can maybe see traces of lining - why was I so quick to varnish over the decals I’ve done! Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted August 3, 2018 Share Posted August 3, 2018 Very easy to be wise after the event, but that's why I build mine to screw apart. It's a pain to do, but much more of a pain when a window gets knocked in on a vehicle you can't just take apart and then reassemble. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted August 3, 2018 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted August 3, 2018 Very easy to be wise after the event, but that's why I build mine to screw apart. It's a pain to do, but much more of a pain when a window gets knocked in on a vehicle you can't just take apart and then reassemble. Normally I’d agree with you, and that’s how I build most of my coaches. however, with the number of pieces glued together for this one, I think strength is more important than later ease of access. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted August 21, 2018 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted August 21, 2018 I’ve been working on the roof now and it’s nearly finished as the photos below show. The roof is resting on, so I should be able to straighten up the top of the sides when it’s glued on properly. The roof itself clearly needs some work on smoothing the joints where the domed ends join the main section, but the bit which is puzzling me is that the Isinglass diagram shows a ‘lump’ between two of the oblong ventilators (which are the excellent Mike Trice 3D printed ones). The pictures I can find are inconclusive on what this may be, but the best photo is the one at the bottom of Steve Banks’ article https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-and-traffic/266-lner-restaurant-cars of one of these vehicles in LNER livery. This suggests perhaps a round vent like on the Hornby buffet car. Does anyone know what this vent might look like? Andy 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted August 21, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 21, 2018 Just caught up with this thread - I'm amazed that you have managed to produce something looking really quite reasonable out of so many bits! Perhaps you should really challenge yourself by chopping things into even smaller chunks!! But seriously, a good looking model that encourages me to be braver! Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted August 21, 2018 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted August 21, 2018 Just caught up with this thread - I'm amazed that you have managed to produce something looking really quite reasonable out of so many bits! Perhaps you should really challenge yourself by chopping things into even smaller chunks!! But seriously, a good looking model that encourages me to be braver! Tony Thanks Tony, I sort of surprised myself, and I think that it might have been easier to start from scratch! It’s certainly not perfect, and suffers from Kirk deep windows But it’s made a distinctive coach of which you don’t see many models. The sides were £6 each from a stall at Warley so I wasn’t risking much if it went wrong. Andy 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted September 4, 2018 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 4, 2018 Time for something different. This is my first attempt at painting teak and I’m reasonably pleased with the way it’s come out although I think it may be too orange. It’s precision weathered teak over precision base teak. Views? The coach is an end vestibule BCK. It’s Mousa sides with MJT floor plan and underframe and a Kirk roof. It will form part of my 1951/2 The West Riding rake which was formed mainly of pre-war streamlined stock and Thompsons but had a couple of Gresley EV vehicles in the Bradford portion. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamieR4489 Posted September 4, 2018 Share Posted September 4, 2018 It looks superb to me. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony Teague Posted September 5, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 5, 2018 Andy The coaches look good to me, although being a Southern man I tend to think that they would look better in green! I have tried the 2 Precision Paints to produce teak, but I found the Mike Trice method even better, as outlined in: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/75178-reproducing-varnished-teak-improving-latest-Hornby-thompsons/ I was going for a heavier weathered effect which may not be what you want: Looking at these again, I think the roofs are way to clean and need more work! Tony 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted September 5, 2018 Share Posted September 5, 2018 (edited) If that's a teak panelled coach, for me, it's too uniform. I'm sure this page has been linked to before, but it's worth looking at the differences between panels. When teak was fairly cheap and plentiful then the carriage shops would take time to try to get the panels looking uniform in colour and grain. As the wood became scarcer and more expensive it became harder to do. As carriages weathered and panels deteriorated they also took on shades of their own. I use the same basic technique as you have, but I paint some panels slightly different shades of the base colour and use different browns to grain them. The Precision shades are part of the arsenal, but Humbrol 9 (very good), 10, 62, 186 and Precision track colour have also featured. Painting the 6 wheelers to go with No. 1 has been an interesting exercise as I've had decent pictures of the actual vehicles, so I've been able to try to reproduce the same panelling patterns as the originals. This is how I do my teak and there are links in there to some other ideas as well. Unless you want a scruffy postwar look then a coat or two of Klear really brings it up as well - the LNER did, briefly, turn out some fully lined and varnished stock after the war and one of those in a set would really stand out. Edited September 5, 2018 by jwealleans Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted September 5, 2018 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 5, 2018 Andy The coaches look good to me, although being a Southern man I tend to think that they would look better in green! I have tried the 2 Precision Paints to produce teak, but I found the Mike Trice method even better, as outlined in: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/75178-reproducing-varnished-teak-improving-latest-Hornby-thompsons/ I was going for a heavier weathered effect which may not be what you want: SJPIMG_136702170623.jpg Looking at these again, I think the roofs are way to clean and need more work! Tony Thanks Tony, It was partly seeing your two d.120s when I came to visit that made me think I could give it a go having always shied away from teak painting before. Yours definitely have better variation along the lines that Jonathon suggests. Your roofs definitely could do with being darker. I tend to use either Precision roof dirt or Halfords car bumper grey - they’re a good match colour wise but the Halfords is more satin whereas precision is a flat Matt. Some soot/ Black/ dark brown weathering powder lightly worked into the roof dirt while drying (after 30-60 mins) looks good as well. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted September 5, 2018 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted September 5, 2018 If that's a teak panelled coach, for me, it's too uniform. I'm sure this page has been linked to before, but it's worth looking at the differences between panels. When teak was fairly cheap and plentiful then the carriage shops would take time to try to get the panels looking uniform in colour and grain. As the wood became scarcer and more expensive it became harder to do. As carriages weathered and panels deteriorated they also took on shades of their own.I use the same basic technique as you have, but I paint some panels slightly different shades of the base colour and use different browns to grain them. The Precision shades are part of the arsenal, but Humbrol 9 (very good), 10, 62, 186 and Precision track colour have also featured. Painting the 6 wheelers to go with No. 1 has been an interesting exercise as I've had decent pictures of the actual vehicles, so I've been able to try to reproduce the same panelling patterns as the originals.This is how I do my teak and there are links in there to some other ideas as well.Unless you want a scruffy postwar look then a coat or two of Klear really brings it up as well - the LNER did, briefly, turn out some fully lined and varnished stock after the war and one of those in a set would really stand out. Thanks Jonathon, I remember reading your teak method a couple of years ago but forgot about it when I was looking for a guide this time. Doh! I will look out some of those colours for next time. The Banks article is interesting. It seems to show that some coaches were pretty uniform while others had notable variations. This one will have to be one of the more uniform ones. I didn’t realise that teak coaches were lined after the war. Presumably that would need a bow pen as I can’t imagine that fine lining could be done with decals. Would the lining have lasted into the era of ExxxxxE BR numbering? Regards Andy 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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